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George Orwell was against all kinds of authoritarianism. A large portion of the left has always disavowed authoritarianism as well, so there is no conflict here

George Orwell was against all kinds of authoritarianism. A large portion of the left has always disavowed authoritarianism as well, so there is no conflict here.

EGreg 8y ago
In fact libertarians were originally socialists, railing against capitalism as a tool of the state, back when the state used to break up eg strikes with violence. See Oscar Wilde for instance, “Man’s soul under socialism.”
- AndyPandy 8y ago
  Libertarianism is only really considered fiscally conservative in the US.
- icebraining 8y ago
  The word still carries that connotation in some places. The Center of Libertarian Culture, in my EU country, is left-wing anarchist.
  - tomjakubowski 8y ago
    I know anarchism isn't the same as libertarianism, but in that vein, there is a legendary post from the ancap subreddit about one naïve American's confusion hanging out with Greek anarchists. https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/3ucp8y/i_was_beat_up_by_left_anarchists_in_greece/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/3ucp8y/...
sonnyblarney 8y ago
'George Orwell' is a fictional character. Real name: 'Eric Blair' who went to Church every Sunday, though I think he was kind of an Atheist. Not the same dude as Orwell. He had complicated views, and was not a 'socialist' in the more popular sense. Remember in 1984 that the 'bad guys' ideology is 'IngSoc', i.e. 'English Socialism'. So not exactly a big Social Dem supporter of the era.
- icebraining 8y ago
  A pen name is not the same as a fictional character. And the point of IngSoc is that it rejects socialist principles, while doing so in the same of Socialism - much like many socialists viewed the Bolsheviks and/or the Stalinists. I don't think this is complicated; in-fighting amongst left-wing/socialist groups is a staple ever since the term was coined. Socialism never had a single main ideology.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    Socialism never had a single main ideology. If you go by person-years of ruled population, Socialism does have a predominant type of regime, which generally branded itself as "Marxist," was mostly totalitarian, and accounted for about 100 million deaths in the past century.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    "A pen name is not the same as a fictional character" I agree and I wish I had the reference, but I think Orwell was used as an identity, not just a pen.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      Well, he penned even his autobiographical works (like Homage to Catalonia) under George Orwell, so it can't be very fictional.
stcredzero 8y ago
> A large portion of the left has always disavowed authoritarianism as well, so there is no conflict here. A significant portion of the left in North American and Western Europe avows a collective authoritarianism of a mob which uses tactics of toxicity, vandalism, and violence to de-platform, intimidate, and de-facto censor. There is a huge conflict there.

George Orwell was against all kinds of authoritarianism. A large portion of the left has always disavowed authoritarianism as well, so there is no conflict here.

EGreg 8y ago

In fact libertarians were originally socialists, railing against capitalism as a tool of the state, back when the state used to break up eg strikes with violence. See Oscar Wilde for instance, “Man’s soul under socialism.”

AndyPandy 8y ago
Libertarianism is only really considered fiscally conservative in the US.
icebraining 8y ago
The word still carries that connotation in some places. The Center of Libertarian Culture, in my EU country, is left-wing anarchist.
- tomjakubowski 8y ago
  I know anarchism isn't the same as libertarianism, but in that vein, there is a legendary post from the ancap subreddit about one naïve American's confusion hanging out with Greek anarchists. https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/3ucp8y/i_was_beat_up_by_left_anarchists_in_greece/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/3ucp8y/...

sonnyblarney 8y ago

'George Orwell' is a fictional character. Real name: 'Eric Blair' who went to Church every Sunday, though I think he was kind of an Atheist. Not the same dude as Orwell. He had complicated views, and was not a 'socialist' in the more popular sense. Remember in 1984 that the 'bad guys' ideology is 'IngSoc', i.e. 'English Socialism'. So not exactly a big Social Dem supporter of the era.

icebraining 8y ago
A pen name is not the same as a fictional character. And the point of IngSoc is that it rejects socialist principles, while doing so in the same of Socialism - much like many socialists viewed the Bolsheviks and/or the Stalinists. I don't think this is complicated; in-fighting amongst left-wing/socialist groups is a staple ever since the term was coined. Socialism never had a single main ideology.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Socialism never had a single main ideology. If you go by person-years of ruled population, Socialism does have a predominant type of regime, which generally branded itself as "Marxist," was mostly totalitarian, and accounted for about 100 million deaths in the past century.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  "A pen name is not the same as a fictional character" I agree and I wish I had the reference, but I think Orwell was used as an identity, not just a pen.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    Well, he penned even his autobiographical works (like Homage to Catalonia) under George Orwell, so it can't be very fictional.

stcredzero 8y ago

> A large portion of the left has always disavowed authoritarianism as well, so there is no conflict here. A significant portion of the left in North American and Western Europe avows a collective authoritarianism of a mob which uses tactics of toxicity, vandalism, and violence to de-platform, intimidate, and de-facto censor. There is a huge conflict there.