3 ms·

I did not actually threaten anyone. I said that I feel like I want to kill the person. It is not the same... I did not communicate it to the person being talked

I did not actually threaten anyone. I said that I feel like I want to kill the person. It is not the same... I did not communicate it to the person being talked about. I also in no way stated that I intended to, was planning on doing so etc. It was, agreeably, a stupid admission of how I felt, which can easily be misinterpreted. It is similar to saying "hey I'd like to have sex with that hot actor". Saying that does not mean you will go rape the actor. It is just a feeling. Feelings don't equate to action. I agree action had to be taken; I have no problem with them reacting. My problem is that I had to go to that level to be paid attention to. My stress was absurdly high before this happened, and I communicated it was repeatedly and received no help. When I finally said "I can't take it" I was ignored. I agree it could have potentially happened without the stress. Despite that the stress definitely triggered whatever the cause was immediately. That was very clear. The doctors did though claim there were zero problems 2 days previous. Usually miscarriage does not occur past the first trimester when all other signs are good.

FireBeyond 8y ago
> I did not actually threaten anyone. I said that I feel like I want to kill the person. It is not the same... I did not communicate it to the person being talked about. I also in no way stated that I intended to, was planning on doing so etc. It was, agreeably, a stupid admission of how I felt, which can easily be misinterpreted. This is part of the problem. "I feel like I want to kill John" is absolutely, utterly, undeniably a threat. Management knowing/not knowing your relationship with John is irrelevant. Your claim is that "because I didn't say, 'with a gun, at lunch time' it's not a threat" isn't particularly proof to your point. > It is similar to saying "hey I'd like to have sex with that hot actor". Saying that does not mean you will go rape the actor. It is just a feeling. Feelings don't equate to action. Is not particularly equivalent. You changed the meaning from consent to non-consent in defending it - "have sex with" became "rape". If you had said "Hey, I feel like I want to rape that actor", it is not unrealistic to think that, should you have access to that person, that rape is out of the question. Just like you didn't say "Hey, I feel like I want to talk to John" (consensual) versus "I feel like I want to kill John". I think your repeated inability to understand this is perhaps at the root, or a significant part, of the issue, and I say this sincerely. The lack of empathy you show to that situation, 'how ridiculous is it? they should have known I didn't feel like killing him', is troubling.
- nanoscopic 8y ago
  The entire argument happened in front of the larger team. The manager did not pull me aside to have the heated conversation. Many people witnessed it. I talked to several of them about it afterwards. I asked if they felt that I was being threatening at all. All of them said they understood what I was going through, that it was clear I was extremely stressed and was flipping out. Each of the people I asked said they did not believe I had any intent to kill my coworker, or even that I said it as any sort of threat. In context it was heard as me simply losing control after saying I couldn't handle it and had to leave immediately. Note that this is the only time in my career I ever actually asked to leave because I couldn't handle a situation. I only even asked because I was very worried I would be fired if I walked out on my own. I have walked out when necessary at others jobs and there was no issue, but that is not the way Amazon is. At least it was not that way on my team. Typically if an argument at work appears, I would just continue hashing it out till its done and go back to work. This situation was unusual.
  - FireBeyond 8y ago
    I don't doubt that you were entirely / too stressed at the time. But take it from others perspectives. Do you think it possible that any of them may not have told you that they felt threatened, imminently or otherwise, even if they had? Do you think it reasonable for management to take issue with such a thing? In the opposite situation, what do you would think might happen to management, or the employer, _had_ you later assaulted that person? Asking (telling) you to leave until the situation changes is the "safest" (even if it turns out to be un-necessary) approach. I say this not to wish you ill. You seem like a sincere, passionate person. If anything, it seems that your biggest challenge might be processing other people's perceptions of situations. It's an important, though not always easy, skill to develop. I myself have had challenges with processing social cues, or determining what is appropriate or not.
    - nanoscopic 8y ago
      I have thought about the whole thing a lot since it happened and considered it from many perspectives. I saw with my own eyes the process of my wife bleeding out. I have to live with that. Obviously I have thought about this. Yes, I considered that someone in the group did feel very threatened and either didn't want to speak to me about it, or that one of the people I did speak to was scared to admit it. It's possible, but the people I spoke with seemed very genuine. If people took issue I believe it was a logical issue not a "I feel threatened" problem. If management is going to have a cow about this, they really should step in a lot sooner and not have allowed it to get to this point. The whole problem is that management doesn't care enough to setup an environment where stuff like this can't happen. I said this to HR and security, and I will repeat it: If I wanted to hurt someone as everyone is implying, I wouldn't have said anything about it and would have just done so. It's not logical. I was well aware people would flip out when I said it, and I wanted something to be done to resolve the situation. My statement was more a cry for help than anything. If anyone actually legitimately thought there was any actual concern I would hurt the person, they shouldn't have allowed me back into the building at all for a long period. I was allowed back in a week later and easily had the access to hurt the person had I intended in any way to do so. I had and still have no such intent. I consider the person to be my friend. Time does not remove the pain I feel. I will continue to feel it. My wish is for large companies to behave better and not force situations on employees that cause things like this to happen. Especially not to software engineers just trying to do our job. I agree that the company and everyone involved is just trying to resolve the situation and follow policy. That is not enough. People need to have humanity and compassion. At no point did anyone apologize for the pain I went through. At no point did I receive a personal letter from Jeff Bezos that he was sad it happened. I don't think Jeff cares at all. I don't think the company cares. Perhaps it is all my fault. I don't think so. I'm no dummy. A lot of things indicate the situation could have been avoided had many people involved acted differently. There is blame on all sides. I can own up to not being perfect. I made mistakes. I was terribly upset. I've grown from it. It still hurts though. I don't think my problem is an inability to see other perspectives. I can readily see them and explain them. The problem is that with tons of people around no one ever actually tried to actually resolve any of the tension. I know it is yucky to get involved in tense situations, but just letting them grow beyond control is bad and hurts people.
jstarfish 8y ago
> It is similar to saying "hey I'd like to have sex with that hot actor". Saying that does not mean you will go rape the actor. It is just a feeling. Feelings don't equate to action. That's why I suggested you think about the implications a few times-- it wasn't the only thing you said in that context. Some random actor isn't within reach of your impulsivity, so there is less of a perceived threat. The equivalent of what you said was "I am having trouble controlling my impulses. Hey I'd like to have sex with [female coworker]." Still not only inappropriate for work, but it changes the tune to one that might have come from the mouth of John Hinckley, Jr. > I agree it could have potentially happened without the stress. Despite that the stress definitely triggered whatever the cause was immediately. That was very clear. The doctors did though claim there were zero problems 2 days previous. Usually miscarriage does not occur past the first trimester when all other signs are good. I don't disagree that the stress was the catalyst, but don't read so much into the doctors' status reports. They're always going to be tempered because they don't want to be stressors themselves. You're latching on to that to continue blaming your boss. Everything could have progressed fine until birth, where physical complications happen, tears occur, sepsis sets in and you lose wife and/or child. Or one/both contracts MRSA after a c-section. Or eclampsia. Or pneumonia. Or goes anaphylactic from dairy in the formula. I've witnessed them all. Thankfully everyone recovered, but it was still harrowing. The risks of pregnancy are always downplayed.

FireBeyond 8y ago

> I did not actually threaten anyone. I said that I feel like I want to kill the person. It is not the same... I did not communicate it to the person being talked about. I also in no way stated that I intended to, was planning on doing so etc. It was, agreeably, a stupid admission of how I felt, which can easily be misinterpreted. This is part of the problem. "I feel like I want to kill John" is absolutely, utterly, undeniably a threat. Management knowing/not knowing your relationship with John is irrelevant. Your claim is that "because I didn't say, 'with a gun, at lunch time' it's not a threat" isn't particularly proof to your point. > It is similar to saying "hey I'd like to have sex with that hot actor". Saying that does not mean you will go rape the actor. It is just a feeling. Feelings don't equate to action. Is not particularly equivalent. You changed the meaning from consent to non-consent in defending it - "have sex with" became "rape". If you had said "Hey, I feel like I want to rape that actor", it is not unrealistic to think that, should you have access to that person, that rape is out of the question. Just like you didn't say "Hey, I feel like I want to talk to John" (consensual) versus "I feel like I want to kill John". I think your repeated inability to understand this is perhaps at the root, or a significant part, of the issue, and I say this sincerely. The lack of empathy you show to that situation, 'how ridiculous is it? they should have known I didn't feel like killing him', is troubling.

nanoscopic 8y ago
The entire argument happened in front of the larger team. The manager did not pull me aside to have the heated conversation. Many people witnessed it. I talked to several of them about it afterwards. I asked if they felt that I was being threatening at all. All of them said they understood what I was going through, that it was clear I was extremely stressed and was flipping out. Each of the people I asked said they did not believe I had any intent to kill my coworker, or even that I said it as any sort of threat. In context it was heard as me simply losing control after saying I couldn't handle it and had to leave immediately. Note that this is the only time in my career I ever actually asked to leave because I couldn't handle a situation. I only even asked because I was very worried I would be fired if I walked out on my own. I have walked out when necessary at others jobs and there was no issue, but that is not the way Amazon is. At least it was not that way on my team. Typically if an argument at work appears, I would just continue hashing it out till its done and go back to work. This situation was unusual.
- FireBeyond 8y ago
  I don't doubt that you were entirely / too stressed at the time. But take it from others perspectives. Do you think it possible that any of them may not have told you that they felt threatened, imminently or otherwise, even if they had? Do you think it reasonable for management to take issue with such a thing? In the opposite situation, what do you would think might happen to management, or the employer, _had_ you later assaulted that person? Asking (telling) you to leave until the situation changes is the "safest" (even if it turns out to be un-necessary) approach. I say this not to wish you ill. You seem like a sincere, passionate person. If anything, it seems that your biggest challenge might be processing other people's perceptions of situations. It's an important, though not always easy, skill to develop. I myself have had challenges with processing social cues, or determining what is appropriate or not.
  - nanoscopic 8y ago
    I have thought about the whole thing a lot since it happened and considered it from many perspectives. I saw with my own eyes the process of my wife bleeding out. I have to live with that. Obviously I have thought about this. Yes, I considered that someone in the group did feel very threatened and either didn't want to speak to me about it, or that one of the people I did speak to was scared to admit it. It's possible, but the people I spoke with seemed very genuine. If people took issue I believe it was a logical issue not a "I feel threatened" problem. If management is going to have a cow about this, they really should step in a lot sooner and not have allowed it to get to this point. The whole problem is that management doesn't care enough to setup an environment where stuff like this can't happen. I said this to HR and security, and I will repeat it: If I wanted to hurt someone as everyone is implying, I wouldn't have said anything about it and would have just done so. It's not logical. I was well aware people would flip out when I said it, and I wanted something to be done to resolve the situation. My statement was more a cry for help than anything. If anyone actually legitimately thought there was any actual concern I would hurt the person, they shouldn't have allowed me back into the building at all for a long period. I was allowed back in a week later and easily had the access to hurt the person had I intended in any way to do so. I had and still have no such intent. I consider the person to be my friend. Time does not remove the pain I feel. I will continue to feel it. My wish is for large companies to behave better and not force situations on employees that cause things like this to happen. Especially not to software engineers just trying to do our job. I agree that the company and everyone involved is just trying to resolve the situation and follow policy. That is not enough. People need to have humanity and compassion. At no point did anyone apologize for the pain I went through. At no point did I receive a personal letter from Jeff Bezos that he was sad it happened. I don't think Jeff cares at all. I don't think the company cares. Perhaps it is all my fault. I don't think so. I'm no dummy. A lot of things indicate the situation could have been avoided had many people involved acted differently. There is blame on all sides. I can own up to not being perfect. I made mistakes. I was terribly upset. I've grown from it. It still hurts though. I don't think my problem is an inability to see other perspectives. I can readily see them and explain them. The problem is that with tons of people around no one ever actually tried to actually resolve any of the tension. I know it is yucky to get involved in tense situations, but just letting them grow beyond control is bad and hurts people.

jstarfish 8y ago

> It is similar to saying "hey I'd like to have sex with that hot actor". Saying that does not mean you will go rape the actor. It is just a feeling. Feelings don't equate to action. That's why I suggested you think about the implications a few times-- it wasn't the only thing you said in that context. Some random actor isn't within reach of your impulsivity, so there is less of a perceived threat. The equivalent of what you said was "I am having trouble controlling my impulses. Hey I'd like to have sex with [female coworker]." Still not only inappropriate for work, but it changes the tune to one that might have come from the mouth of John Hinckley, Jr. > I agree it could have potentially happened without the stress. Despite that the stress definitely triggered whatever the cause was immediately. That was very clear. The doctors did though claim there were zero problems 2 days previous. Usually miscarriage does not occur past the first trimester when all other signs are good. I don't disagree that the stress was the catalyst, but don't read so much into the doctors' status reports. They're always going to be tempered because they don't want to be stressors themselves. You're latching on to that to continue blaming your boss. Everything could have progressed fine until birth, where physical complications happen, tears occur, sepsis sets in and you lose wife and/or child. Or one/both contracts MRSA after a c-section. Or eclampsia. Or pneumonia. Or goes anaphylactic from dairy in the formula. I've witnessed them all. Thankfully everyone recovered, but it was still harrowing. The risks of pregnancy are always downplayed.