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This seems odd to me. Solar panels should last at least 30 years but we've been finding most just keep working, potentially for decades longer. While the power

This seems odd to me. Solar panels should last at least 30 years but we've been finding most just keep working, potentially for decades longer. While the power they produce degrades with time, it's not enough to be worth junking the panel. Basically no solar panels should be recycled unless they are completely non-functional or faulty. My guess is this plant will be dealing almost entirely with damaged panels and not end of life panels. Or they hope to trick people into recycling perfectly good but old panels, which is not eco-friendly at all.

sounds 8y ago
I don't think it's a trick. While I don't know the details about this plant, I've noted that a large number of solar panels are removed (and then disposed of) while they have some useful life left. To be clear, I'm not saying people junk panels that are still producing. But just for panels generating a standard "bucketed" wattage, a very small amount of damage can lead to a "defective" panel. By removing the silicone and/or glass, the still-usable parts can be recycled into what you might call a "remanufactured" panel. Or, if the cells have been in service for a very long time, by taking apart the panel, the cells can be recycled as high-purity stock. (In other words, ground up and used to make new solar cells.) None of this makes economic sense until it is being done at huge scale. Therefore, I expect this is plant is mostly an experiment, expecting that as the deployment of panels continues to grow exponentially, having a viable (and proven) recycling plant will grow in value proportionally to the panels.
ChuckMcM 8y ago
I have a solar panel that was hit by a falling rock (we're not sure how but it spiderwebbed the glass on the panel). I am a single sample but given the high number of solar installs, and the potential for mechanical damage (rocks, hail, etc) It seems like there might be sufficient material to support a recycling plant. That said, most commercial installations price out the replacement as part of the life cycle management of their solar infrastructure. They will 'recycle' perfectly good solar panels like they recycle perfectly good computers. If you are running operations for a large physical plant this helps you spread the maintenance over time and avoid times where there is more repair work to do than you have staff to do it with.
- caf 8y ago
  Just like end-of-lease computers, it would seem to make the most economic sense just to auction off those replaced panels as working units (albeit slightly degraded).
planteen 8y ago
> This seems odd to me. Solar panels should last at least 30 years but we've been finding most just keep working, potentially for decades longer. What installations do we have data on that have been running since 1970 or so? You say they should last at least 30 years but may keep working decades longer. > While the power they produce degrades with time, it's not enough to be worth junking the panel. It's not surprising to me that they will fail, even before 30 years. I mean, they are outside, subjected to weather and thermal cycling. They are going to get hit by lightning, hail, and lots of freeze/thaw cycles. Almost everything degrades in that environment. Even the panel support structures themselves will get crooked on that time scale from soil moisture changes.
- blacksmith_tb 8y ago
  Soil moisture changes? Most panels are mounted on metal rails on roofs, presumably the structure isn't shifting so much that the roof's geometry is changing. Otherwise, yes, obviously exposure to the elements is hard on everything, though humans successfully maintain structures that are hundreds of years old.
  - planteen 8y ago
    I was talking about solar farms. I've started to see a few of them scattered around Colorado. The structure looks like something dug with a fence post hole digger. Old fences definitely show their age around here (as in they are crooked) due to expansive soils. Or maybe its mostly due to freeze/thaw in the ground.
- caf 8y ago
  The 1970s was when solar PV started to be used for RAPS (remote area power supplies), so there's a reasonable number of installations out there of that era. I wonder if any surveys of those have been done.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
walrus01 8y ago
I agree we should have some recycling capability. One of the things I think it will be used for is cheap panels that have failed entirely through encapsulation failure. If you follow the german photovoltaic industry there have been several large-scale grid feeding power plants that turned in all of their panels to the manufacturer for warranty replacement because the encapsulation failed. If you have a PV panel that isn't physically damaged and its encapsulation is still fine - it still has value even at 25 years of life... I'd happily buy a pallet load of used, physically fine condition 360W panels that when put on a STC flasher "only" produce 320W, at a very cheap $/watt price.
StanislavPetrov 8y ago
A solar panel purchased 25 years ago may be still technically functional but far, far less efficient than a modern solar panel.
- caf 8y ago
  Sure, it's obviously not worth much - but the question is whether it's worth more as a less efficient but working panel, or as raw recycling feedstock material.

sounds 8y ago

I don't think it's a trick. While I don't know the details about this plant, I've noted that a large number of solar panels are removed (and then disposed of) while they have some useful life left. To be clear, I'm not saying people junk panels that are still producing. But just for panels generating a standard "bucketed" wattage, a very small amount of damage can lead to a "defective" panel. By removing the silicone and/or glass, the still-usable parts can be recycled into what you might call a "remanufactured" panel. Or, if the cells have been in service for a very long time, by taking apart the panel, the cells can be recycled as high-purity stock. (In other words, ground up and used to make new solar cells.) None of this makes economic sense until it is being done at huge scale. Therefore, I expect this is plant is mostly an experiment, expecting that as the deployment of panels continues to grow exponentially, having a viable (and proven) recycling plant will grow in value proportionally to the panels.

ChuckMcM 8y ago

I have a solar panel that was hit by a falling rock (we're not sure how but it spiderwebbed the glass on the panel). I am a single sample but given the high number of solar installs, and the potential for mechanical damage (rocks, hail, etc) It seems like there might be sufficient material to support a recycling plant. That said, most commercial installations price out the replacement as part of the life cycle management of their solar infrastructure. They will 'recycle' perfectly good solar panels like they recycle perfectly good computers. If you are running operations for a large physical plant this helps you spread the maintenance over time and avoid times where there is more repair work to do than you have staff to do it with.

caf 8y ago
Just like end-of-lease computers, it would seem to make the most economic sense just to auction off those replaced panels as working units (albeit slightly degraded).

planteen 8y ago

> This seems odd to me. Solar panels should last at least 30 years but we've been finding most just keep working, potentially for decades longer. What installations do we have data on that have been running since 1970 or so? You say they should last at least 30 years but may keep working decades longer. > While the power they produce degrades with time, it's not enough to be worth junking the panel. It's not surprising to me that they will fail, even before 30 years. I mean, they are outside, subjected to weather and thermal cycling. They are going to get hit by lightning, hail, and lots of freeze/thaw cycles. Almost everything degrades in that environment. Even the panel support structures themselves will get crooked on that time scale from soil moisture changes.

blacksmith_tb 8y ago
Soil moisture changes? Most panels are mounted on metal rails on roofs, presumably the structure isn't shifting so much that the roof's geometry is changing. Otherwise, yes, obviously exposure to the elements is hard on everything, though humans successfully maintain structures that are hundreds of years old.
- planteen 8y ago
  I was talking about solar farms. I've started to see a few of them scattered around Colorado. The structure looks like something dug with a fence post hole digger. Old fences definitely show their age around here (as in they are crooked) due to expansive soils. Or maybe its mostly due to freeze/thaw in the ground.
caf 8y ago
The 1970s was when solar PV started to be used for RAPS (remote area power supplies), so there's a reasonable number of installations out there of that era. I wonder if any surveys of those have been done.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

walrus01 8y ago

I agree we should have some recycling capability. One of the things I think it will be used for is cheap panels that have failed entirely through encapsulation failure. If you follow the german photovoltaic industry there have been several large-scale grid feeding power plants that turned in all of their panels to the manufacturer for warranty replacement because the encapsulation failed. If you have a PV panel that isn't physically damaged and its encapsulation is still fine - it still has value even at 25 years of life... I'd happily buy a pallet load of used, physically fine condition 360W panels that when put on a STC flasher "only" produce 320W, at a very cheap $/watt price.

StanislavPetrov 8y ago

A solar panel purchased 25 years ago may be still technically functional but far, far less efficient than a modern solar panel.

caf 8y ago
Sure, it's obviously not worth much - but the question is whether it's worth more as a less efficient but working panel, or as raw recycling feedstock material.