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Emissions footprint is being improved every day - you might remember an article from a month ago discussing that giving seaweed to cows reduces their emissions

Emissions footprint is being improved every day - you might remember an article from a month ago discussing that giving seaweed to cows reduces their emissions by a huge amount. If everyone went veg, we would need more farms right? How many more field mice/rabbits/snakes/whatever will suffer/get squashed from this? Is this number comparable to the amount of cows that suffer for steak? It seems like smaller creatures treatment never get considered.

oldcynic 8y ago
> If everyone went veg, we would need more farms right? Fewer, or have some spare to cater for growing population. Farmers currently growing grain for animal feed could grow other things instead. Veg perhaps?
- hackerman12345 8y ago
  Right, but also instead of a pasture for cows to run around and eat, you get a field with increases the amount of suffering of the little field mice and bunnies.
ainiriand 8y ago
How much food do you think a cow eats? How much fertile soil is dedicated to grow food for livestock instead of human food? Is it safe to say that a cow eats about 50kg per day? How much do you eat in a week? These are the things that you should be asking to yourself.
- hackerman12345 8y ago
  Everyone prefers grass fed cows anyway, right?
  - ainiriand 8y ago
    So 50kg of grass. That is quite a decent amount of land to cover per day man.
    - hackerman12345 8y ago
      My point is that cows don't smash the field mice all day long.
  - ergothus 8y ago
    I was shocked to learn a few years ago that the percentage of US grown corn for human consumption is so low that it is basically an afterthought in the farming industry. That doesn't mean that switching g to 100% vegetarian would have no impact, but does mean that the actual farming area is already sufficient for humans.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      Sometimes I wonder what we’re going to do with all that farmland when ethanol and industrial livestock isn’t a thing anymore.
      - erikpukinskis 8y ago
        I can use it. We can turn it into food forests for a back-to-the-land lifestyle product. Also carbon sequester. Basically: turn it back to forests and make it easy for people fleeing dying cities to move there (in the 2040s)
ianleeclark 8y ago
> If everyone went veg, we would need more farms right? No, cows eat too. Think about it this way: to get 1000 calories worth of energy from a cow, that cow has to consume more than 1000 calories due to maintenance (BMR) alone. Moreover, one acre of land producing soybeans, rice, or legumes much more protein and much more calories per year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edible_protein_per_unit_area_of_land https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edible_protein_per_unit_area_o... > How many more field mice/rabbits/snakes/whatever will suffer/get squashed from this? Fewer as shown from the previous point proving that we could feed more people on less acreage of land > Is this number comparable to the amount of cows that suffer for steak? No, it's smaller and we get to cut out the cool parts like raping cows to produce milk and then ripping their children away from them.
- hackerman12345 8y ago
  According to: https://www.nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/sp/sp_ne153.pdf https://www.nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/sp/sp_ne153.pdf it is not smaller. 12 mice per acre average. That's a lot more animal lives being ruined per acre IMO - and that's just the mice. If you want to convince people of your cause, you need to be willing to be honest about the pros and cons instead of going for an emotional argument.
  - ianleeclark 8y ago
    It's not an emotional argument, if a vegan diet requires 1/10th of the acreage, then it requires 12 dead mice as opposed to the 120 dead mice + _whatever animals you're eating_ of the meat-eating diet. A meat eating diet inherently requires more acreage due to thermodynamics. It works like this: 20 acres of grain feeds 10 cows which feeds 1 person for a year, therefore 240 dead mice and 10 dead cows. An omnivore's diet inherently requires more acreage, therefore more dead mice and all the cows, chicken, fish, &c. you're eating.
    - hackerman12345 8y ago
      I think the mice can usually run out of a way of a cow slowly grazing along pasture.

oldcynic 8y ago

> If everyone went veg, we would need more farms right? Fewer, or have some spare to cater for growing population. Farmers currently growing grain for animal feed could grow other things instead. Veg perhaps?

hackerman12345 8y ago
Right, but also instead of a pasture for cows to run around and eat, you get a field with increases the amount of suffering of the little field mice and bunnies.

ainiriand 8y ago

How much food do you think a cow eats? How much fertile soil is dedicated to grow food for livestock instead of human food? Is it safe to say that a cow eats about 50kg per day? How much do you eat in a week? These are the things that you should be asking to yourself.

hackerman12345 8y ago
Everyone prefers grass fed cows anyway, right?
- ainiriand 8y ago
  So 50kg of grass. That is quite a decent amount of land to cover per day man.
  - hackerman12345 8y ago
    My point is that cows don't smash the field mice all day long.
- ergothus 8y ago
  I was shocked to learn a few years ago that the percentage of US grown corn for human consumption is so low that it is basically an afterthought in the farming industry. That doesn't mean that switching g to 100% vegetarian would have no impact, but does mean that the actual farming area is already sufficient for humans.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    Sometimes I wonder what we’re going to do with all that farmland when ethanol and industrial livestock isn’t a thing anymore.
    - erikpukinskis 8y ago
      I can use it. We can turn it into food forests for a back-to-the-land lifestyle product. Also carbon sequester. Basically: turn it back to forests and make it easy for people fleeing dying cities to move there (in the 2040s)

ianleeclark 8y ago

> If everyone went veg, we would need more farms right? No, cows eat too. Think about it this way: to get 1000 calories worth of energy from a cow, that cow has to consume more than 1000 calories due to maintenance (BMR) alone. Moreover, one acre of land producing soybeans, rice, or legumes much more protein and much more calories per year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edible_protein_per_unit_area_of_land https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edible_protein_per_unit_area_o... > How many more field mice/rabbits/snakes/whatever will suffer/get squashed from this? Fewer as shown from the previous point proving that we could feed more people on less acreage of land > Is this number comparable to the amount of cows that suffer for steak? No, it's smaller and we get to cut out the cool parts like raping cows to produce milk and then ripping their children away from them.

hackerman12345 8y ago
According to: https://www.nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/sp/sp_ne153.pdf https://www.nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/sp/sp_ne153.pdf it is not smaller. 12 mice per acre average. That's a lot more animal lives being ruined per acre IMO - and that's just the mice. If you want to convince people of your cause, you need to be willing to be honest about the pros and cons instead of going for an emotional argument.
- ianleeclark 8y ago
  It's not an emotional argument, if a vegan diet requires 1/10th of the acreage, then it requires 12 dead mice as opposed to the 120 dead mice + _whatever animals you're eating_ of the meat-eating diet. A meat eating diet inherently requires more acreage due to thermodynamics. It works like this: 20 acres of grain feeds 10 cows which feeds 1 person for a year, therefore 240 dead mice and 10 dead cows. An omnivore's diet inherently requires more acreage, therefore more dead mice and all the cows, chicken, fish, &c. you're eating.
  - hackerman12345 8y ago
    I think the mice can usually run out of a way of a cow slowly grazing along pasture.