6 ms·

Probiotics for bipolar disorder mania

105 points by chmaynard 8y ago

cozzyd 8y ago
I wonder if gut flora has more to do with absorption of the medicine than anything else.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Not just medicinal absorption, but even mental health directly. I have an educated hunch that we’re going to find a lot of answers in the coming years about how our treatment and abuse of our gut flora (the widespread use of broad spectrum antibiotics, Western/high sugar diets) is responsible for some chronic illnesses. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5641835/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5641835/
- vegardx 8y ago
  Sure - there are plenty of things you can eat or drink to increase absorption and metabolism, one famous interaction is with grapefruit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapefruit–drug_interactions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapefruit–drug_interactions
  - LinuxBender 8y ago
    Also garlic extract, curcumin and piperine (or bioperine), change how things are metabolized and processed in the liver. I take those and they amplify the effect of a medication I take, so I have to be extra careful with dosage.
    - vegardx 8y ago
      On the flip side you can often get by with lower dosages, which in some cases mean less side effects.
      - LinuxBender 8y ago
        I concur. The medication was in fact causing nasty side effects and I was able to cut the dosage in half. I may even be able to ween myself off it entirely once I find the right combination of natural alternatives.
  - always_good 8y ago
    I took a dose of acid so large that I had to curl up under my bed sheet for the two hours of the peak. Once the peak left and I could again walk around and brave the sunlight, I realized I was ravenously hungry. I grabbed a grapefruit and began devouring it. More than halfway through the fruit's succulent sectors, I felt overwhelmed again as if the peak had returned and had to seek darkness for another twenty minutes. Most drug interactions are hard to detect. Do I notice if the amphetamine is hitting 15% harder or weaker than usual? Or if I'm focusing 15% better or worse? Not really. Feels arbitrary to try and measure it. But re-crossing acid's threshold immediately after exiting it was the hard evidence I needed to believe in what always sounded like highschool folktale.
- symlock 8y ago
  Most antibiotics & modern medicine kills gut flora. It seems gut flora have more to do with proper nutritional absorption preventing the need of drugs to begin with. Consider the termite's inability to digest wood when their gut flora is destroyed. After all, no one has an aspirin deficiency.
  - cozzyd 8y ago
    Sure but I'm getting at a different connection. In this particular study, where both groups are presumably taking antipsychotics, the probiotics might increase the effectiveness of the medicine they are already taking.
  - stevenwoo 8y ago
    Funny you mention that because yesterday I read that there are people who actually need to take aspirin. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/her-doctor-said-she-had-the-flu-it-took-years-to-find-the-real-and-strange-illness/2018/06/22/6d30a504-5862-11e8-858f-12becb4d6067_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/her-d... Long story, short - sensitivity to aspirin is problem that can be treated with exposure to aspirin in controlled setting to reduce extreme respiratory/allergy symptoms and continued daily aspirin afterwards for maintenance.
    - stephengillie 8y ago
      In the article, the woman is found to be allergic to NSAIDs. Meanwhile, others are prescribed Aspirin as a blood-thinner, to prevent recurrence of stroke.[0] [0] https://www.healthline.com/health-news/aspirin-heart-attack-stroke-050614 https://www.healthline.com/health-news/aspirin-heart-attack-...
      - stevenwoo 8y ago
        Yes but the treatment involved getting aspirin under a doctor's supervision to eliminate the sensitivity, unless I misremembered that. Prior to that she get sicker and sicker until she got pneumonia, and then a doctor who happened to be familiar with the aspirin syndrome from recent work elsewhere, suggested that as a diagnosis. Under the aspirin as therapeutic her life significantly improved.
code_duck 8y ago
My mother was diagnosed with bipolar and treated with lithium and other drugs for years before she was diagnosed with celiac, and autoimmune disease that centers around the small bowel. It was assumed that I would have this issue myself, and indeed I've had many times where my moods dominated my life. It never felt like 'me' to be depressed, or hyperactive, and I had a wide variety of other mood and neurological issues such as anxiety, confusion, constant fatigue and insomnia, along with a variety of unexplained groups of physical symptoms. So, obviously I turned out to have celiac disease too. Now that I have stopped consuming gluten, the trigger for celiac, my moods are much more stable. When I inadvertently consume some, part of the reaction I have (which is days long) includes psychological symptoms. Now, in the absence of frequent gluten poisoning, these symptoms stand out. However, with all this experience, I have no idea how my microbiome affects my mental health. The effects could easily be explained by the immune storm kicked off in my body by gluten. I also have little idea of how my health observations relate to normal people who don't have celiac. Probiotics don't seem to affect my sense of well-being. There is a startup in Los Alamos focused on personal microbiomes. I'm thinking of getting analyzed: https://www.viome.com https://www.viome.com
- sbinthree 8y ago
  Same experience. Bipolar relatives, volatile in childhood, diagnosed at 20, way more stable now since switching my diet. From severe diagnosed anxiety disorder to calm in one week after removing gluten from diet. Symptoms, especially self harm ideation , grandiosity and anxiety come back for exactly 48-72 hours when I ingest it and then subside. Life changing. Probiotics and other vitamins never made that much difference by comparison. Bipolar has many causes though. The only biological difference between those who self harm and those who don't is zinc deficiency.
  - ianai 8y ago
    What are the foods you’re eating with gluten in them?
    - code_duck 8y ago
oceanghost 8y ago
So, there was a book called GAPS-- Gut and Psychology Syndrome published in 2004, whose author claimed you can relieve some psychological disorders with her protocol designed to heal your gut and populate it with better flora. I don't think it is a cure-all, but there are thousands of Amazon reviews saying this changed their life. I have ADHD, and had moderate success with it when I could stick with it...but the protocol is brutal. Absolutely brutal. With the added difficulty that I'm allergic to some of the staples of the diet. I've never been able to make it more than a couple weeks. The suggested duration is 18 months. Those who have stuck with it have reported good results. I believe the GAPS diet is based on something called the "specific carbohydrate diet." Which, if I understand correctly is from the 1920s.
- Covzire 8y ago
  Mind giving a condensed explanation of the diet?
  - oceanghost 8y ago
    Keeping in mind that I am not qualified to judge the medical efficacy of the diet-- the premise is to give your gut a chance to reboot and heal by taking away anything that is damaging, and providing nutrients to rebuild. It starts as an elimination diet (the first few days you are only allowed bone broth, yogurt, and the juice of fermented vegetables). You'll be making all these things yourself, from organic ingredients if at all possible (is this necessary? Who knows). There are 6 stages total, they gradually introduce more normal foods. You go from stocks, to vegertable soups, to boiled meats... There's a general summary here: http://www.gapsdiet.com/gaps-introduction-diet.html http://www.gapsdiet.com/gaps-introduction-diet.html For me the difficulty was, going about my normnal day, and devoting several hours a day to cooking with a toddler to look after. But I would suggest trying it if you're of a mind. I felt better almost immediately. My complexion changed, my mind changed. I felt like I was not at war with the world for the first time. Infact, just talking about it Im considering starting it again. :) Let me know if you have any specific questions.
    - 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
black6 8y ago
Dr. David Perlmutter has a fantastic talk (called Brain Maker, and associated with his book of the same name) on this mind-gut link. Synopsis here: https://experiencelife.com/article/healthy-gut-healthy-brain/ https://experiencelife.com/article/healthy-gut-healthy-brain...

105 points by chmaynard 8y ago

cozzyd 8y ago

I wonder if gut flora has more to do with absorption of the medicine than anything else.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
Not just medicinal absorption, but even mental health directly. I have an educated hunch that we’re going to find a lot of answers in the coming years about how our treatment and abuse of our gut flora (the widespread use of broad spectrum antibiotics, Western/high sugar diets) is responsible for some chronic illnesses. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5641835/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5641835/
vegardx 8y ago
Sure - there are plenty of things you can eat or drink to increase absorption and metabolism, one famous interaction is with grapefruit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapefruit–drug_interactions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapefruit–drug_interactions
- LinuxBender 8y ago
  Also garlic extract, curcumin and piperine (or bioperine), change how things are metabolized and processed in the liver. I take those and they amplify the effect of a medication I take, so I have to be extra careful with dosage.
  - vegardx 8y ago
    On the flip side you can often get by with lower dosages, which in some cases mean less side effects.
    - LinuxBender 8y ago
      I concur. The medication was in fact causing nasty side effects and I was able to cut the dosage in half. I may even be able to ween myself off it entirely once I find the right combination of natural alternatives.
- always_good 8y ago
  I took a dose of acid so large that I had to curl up under my bed sheet for the two hours of the peak. Once the peak left and I could again walk around and brave the sunlight, I realized I was ravenously hungry. I grabbed a grapefruit and began devouring it. More than halfway through the fruit's succulent sectors, I felt overwhelmed again as if the peak had returned and had to seek darkness for another twenty minutes. Most drug interactions are hard to detect. Do I notice if the amphetamine is hitting 15% harder or weaker than usual? Or if I'm focusing 15% better or worse? Not really. Feels arbitrary to try and measure it. But re-crossing acid's threshold immediately after exiting it was the hard evidence I needed to believe in what always sounded like highschool folktale.
symlock 8y ago
Most antibiotics & modern medicine kills gut flora. It seems gut flora have more to do with proper nutritional absorption preventing the need of drugs to begin with. Consider the termite's inability to digest wood when their gut flora is destroyed. After all, no one has an aspirin deficiency.
- cozzyd 8y ago
  Sure but I'm getting at a different connection. In this particular study, where both groups are presumably taking antipsychotics, the probiotics might increase the effectiveness of the medicine they are already taking.
- stevenwoo 8y ago
  Funny you mention that because yesterday I read that there are people who actually need to take aspirin. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/her-doctor-said-she-had-the-flu-it-took-years-to-find-the-real-and-strange-illness/2018/06/22/6d30a504-5862-11e8-858f-12becb4d6067_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/her-d... Long story, short - sensitivity to aspirin is problem that can be treated with exposure to aspirin in controlled setting to reduce extreme respiratory/allergy symptoms and continued daily aspirin afterwards for maintenance.
  - stephengillie 8y ago
    In the article, the woman is found to be allergic to NSAIDs. Meanwhile, others are prescribed Aspirin as a blood-thinner, to prevent recurrence of stroke.[0] [0] https://www.healthline.com/health-news/aspirin-heart-attack-stroke-050614 https://www.healthline.com/health-news/aspirin-heart-attack-...
    - stevenwoo 8y ago
      Yes but the treatment involved getting aspirin under a doctor's supervision to eliminate the sensitivity, unless I misremembered that. Prior to that she get sicker and sicker until she got pneumonia, and then a doctor who happened to be familiar with the aspirin syndrome from recent work elsewhere, suggested that as a diagnosis. Under the aspirin as therapeutic her life significantly improved.

code_duck 8y ago

My mother was diagnosed with bipolar and treated with lithium and other drugs for years before she was diagnosed with celiac, and autoimmune disease that centers around the small bowel. It was assumed that I would have this issue myself, and indeed I've had many times where my moods dominated my life. It never felt like 'me' to be depressed, or hyperactive, and I had a wide variety of other mood and neurological issues such as anxiety, confusion, constant fatigue and insomnia, along with a variety of unexplained groups of physical symptoms. So, obviously I turned out to have celiac disease too. Now that I have stopped consuming gluten, the trigger for celiac, my moods are much more stable. When I inadvertently consume some, part of the reaction I have (which is days long) includes psychological symptoms. Now, in the absence of frequent gluten poisoning, these symptoms stand out. However, with all this experience, I have no idea how my microbiome affects my mental health. The effects could easily be explained by the immune storm kicked off in my body by gluten. I also have little idea of how my health observations relate to normal people who don't have celiac. Probiotics don't seem to affect my sense of well-being. There is a startup in Los Alamos focused on personal microbiomes. I'm thinking of getting analyzed: https://www.viome.com https://www.viome.com

sbinthree 8y ago
Same experience. Bipolar relatives, volatile in childhood, diagnosed at 20, way more stable now since switching my diet. From severe diagnosed anxiety disorder to calm in one week after removing gluten from diet. Symptoms, especially self harm ideation , grandiosity and anxiety come back for exactly 48-72 hours when I ingest it and then subside. Life changing. Probiotics and other vitamins never made that much difference by comparison. Bipolar has many causes though. The only biological difference between those who self harm and those who don't is zinc deficiency.
- ianai 8y ago
  What are the foods you’re eating with gluten in them?
  - code_duck 8y ago

oceanghost 8y ago

So, there was a book called GAPS-- Gut and Psychology Syndrome published in 2004, whose author claimed you can relieve some psychological disorders with her protocol designed to heal your gut and populate it with better flora. I don't think it is a cure-all, but there are thousands of Amazon reviews saying this changed their life. I have ADHD, and had moderate success with it when I could stick with it...but the protocol is brutal. Absolutely brutal. With the added difficulty that I'm allergic to some of the staples of the diet. I've never been able to make it more than a couple weeks. The suggested duration is 18 months. Those who have stuck with it have reported good results. I believe the GAPS diet is based on something called the "specific carbohydrate diet." Which, if I understand correctly is from the 1920s.

Covzire 8y ago
Mind giving a condensed explanation of the diet?
- oceanghost 8y ago
  Keeping in mind that I am not qualified to judge the medical efficacy of the diet-- the premise is to give your gut a chance to reboot and heal by taking away anything that is damaging, and providing nutrients to rebuild. It starts as an elimination diet (the first few days you are only allowed bone broth, yogurt, and the juice of fermented vegetables). You'll be making all these things yourself, from organic ingredients if at all possible (is this necessary? Who knows). There are 6 stages total, they gradually introduce more normal foods. You go from stocks, to vegertable soups, to boiled meats... There's a general summary here: http://www.gapsdiet.com/gaps-introduction-diet.html http://www.gapsdiet.com/gaps-introduction-diet.html For me the difficulty was, going about my normnal day, and devoting several hours a day to cooking with a toddler to look after. But I would suggest trying it if you're of a mind. I felt better almost immediately. My complexion changed, my mind changed. I felt like I was not at war with the world for the first time. Infact, just talking about it Im considering starting it again. :) Let me know if you have any specific questions.
  - 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

black6 8y ago

Dr. David Perlmutter has a fantastic talk (called Brain Maker, and associated with his book of the same name) on this mind-gut link. Synopsis here: https://experiencelife.com/article/healthy-gut-healthy-brain/ https://experiencelife.com/article/healthy-gut-healthy-brain...