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40k-50k as a junior developer? Would a junior at your company have the same skillset as a junior at Google/Facebook/Amazon? Are you not expected to work 60h+ a

40k-50k as a junior developer? Would a junior at your company have the same skillset as a junior at Google/Facebook/Amazon? Are you not expected to work 60h+ a week? Is it pretty lax? I just can't fathom how it could be so low. I'd understand 65-75k for a junior in Michigan.

curiouscat321 8y ago
As a UMich grad, most of us left because of the low salaries. It’s appalling how little software engineers make in the state and how much companies complain about an inability to find talent.
- Ntrails 8y ago
  A large part of me thinks that Devs are hurtling towards the same graduate job demographic as lawyers.
- bpicolo 8y ago
  I left because I never had interest in staying in Michigan in the first place, though Ann Arbor is absolutely gorgeous and if I wanted to live outside a major city it would be one of my first choices. Salary is one part of that, but unless you grew up in the area, most non-hub-city regions are a hard sell for young folk, and Detroit hasn't yet recovered enough to be "hip". People used to have for move specifically to find a job, but in tech there are so many jobs available currently that you kind of get your choice of destination if you're a capable engineer, especially with remote work available.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
Is it considered normal for developers to work 60 hours a week in the USA? Because from my experiences in Australia and New Zealand, the majority of people work a 40 hour week. Everyone in my office has cleared out by 6 PM. $50k a year for working 40 hours a week in the midwest with its lower cost of living sounds like a fine deal. Those kinds of wages are fairly normal for software developers to earn internationally in other developed countries like Australia or Germany.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  $50k doesn't go far. Other countries have taxpayer funded healthcare (easily worth $10k per year), 1 year maternity and paternity leave, 6 weeks of vacation, and stronger employee protections (so that you actually are working 40 hours a week).
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    I guess you're right there. I earn the equivalent of US$55k (plus bonus) here in Australia (I could be earning more, long story) as a relatively junior developer. But then you have to add my annual leave entitlement, I get 4 weeks annual leave plus 2 weeks of public holidays (this country is so amazing, they give me a day off to watch the horse races). I hear that the standard in the USA is 2 weeks for a professional job. So I essentially get a 10% bonus in holiday pay. I also get 10 days of paid sick leave a year, and 3 days of bereavement leave for deaths of close relatives. I also have 9.5% superannuation on top of my salary, and I don't have to pay health insurance. For the luxury of (almost) free healthcare, my tax burden is only $700 more than it would be in Grand Rapids. According to a random website I found, I'd be paying $3,000 per year for health insurance in Michigan [1]. So my income, adjusted for superannuation and annual leave, is around $67k, add the health insurance to that and I'm at $70k. Apparently cost of living in San Fransisco is about 40% higher than Melbourne [2], so on that comparison I'm not doing poorly, but Melbourne is about 20% more expensive than Grand Rapids [3]. I'm always skeptical of Numbeo though, because the numbers are quite off. Basically though, I have US$20k (plus bonus) per year of disposable income after I pay for food, rent, and utilities. [1] https://www.valuepenguin.com/average-cost-of-health-insurance https://www.valuepenguin.com/average-cost-of-health-insuranc... [2] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Australia&country2=United+States&city1=Melbourne&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... [3] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Australia&country2=United+States&city1=Melbourne&city2=Grand+Rapids%2C+MI https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
    - lotsofpulp 8y ago
      Thanks for the numbers! The US is great if you're in the top 20%, especially if you're married to another in the top 20%, but otherwise I think most people would be better off in more equitable countries.
zolthrowaway 8y ago
You're right. This is definitely low. I currently live in Pittsburgh. We hire our junior devs at about $65k starting with pretty good benefits. I threw Grand Rapids in a cost of living calculator and it had that salary at about $61k in Grand Rapids (5% cheaper). I'm pretty sure you could get entry level jobs in places like Cleveland and Rochester for similar costs. I haven't looked, but I'd be willing to bet you could get a similar starting salary in North Carolina or Virginia. Everyone is different and I don't want to knock anyone for being happy, but I personally would look to one of the other cheap COL areas if I was starting my career.

curiouscat321 8y ago

As a UMich grad, most of us left because of the low salaries. It’s appalling how little software engineers make in the state and how much companies complain about an inability to find talent.

Ntrails 8y ago
A large part of me thinks that Devs are hurtling towards the same graduate job demographic as lawyers.
bpicolo 8y ago
I left because I never had interest in staying in Michigan in the first place, though Ann Arbor is absolutely gorgeous and if I wanted to live outside a major city it would be one of my first choices. Salary is one part of that, but unless you grew up in the area, most non-hub-city regions are a hard sell for young folk, and Detroit hasn't yet recovered enough to be "hip". People used to have for move specifically to find a job, but in tech there are so many jobs available currently that you kind of get your choice of destination if you're a capable engineer, especially with remote work available.

toomanybeersies 8y ago

Is it considered normal for developers to work 60 hours a week in the USA? Because from my experiences in Australia and New Zealand, the majority of people work a 40 hour week. Everyone in my office has cleared out by 6 PM. $50k a year for working 40 hours a week in the midwest with its lower cost of living sounds like a fine deal. Those kinds of wages are fairly normal for software developers to earn internationally in other developed countries like Australia or Germany.

lotsofpulp 8y ago
$50k doesn't go far. Other countries have taxpayer funded healthcare (easily worth $10k per year), 1 year maternity and paternity leave, 6 weeks of vacation, and stronger employee protections (so that you actually are working 40 hours a week).
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  I guess you're right there. I earn the equivalent of US$55k (plus bonus) here in Australia (I could be earning more, long story) as a relatively junior developer. But then you have to add my annual leave entitlement, I get 4 weeks annual leave plus 2 weeks of public holidays (this country is so amazing, they give me a day off to watch the horse races). I hear that the standard in the USA is 2 weeks for a professional job. So I essentially get a 10% bonus in holiday pay. I also get 10 days of paid sick leave a year, and 3 days of bereavement leave for deaths of close relatives. I also have 9.5% superannuation on top of my salary, and I don't have to pay health insurance. For the luxury of (almost) free healthcare, my tax burden is only $700 more than it would be in Grand Rapids. According to a random website I found, I'd be paying $3,000 per year for health insurance in Michigan [1]. So my income, adjusted for superannuation and annual leave, is around $67k, add the health insurance to that and I'm at $70k. Apparently cost of living in San Fransisco is about 40% higher than Melbourne [2], so on that comparison I'm not doing poorly, but Melbourne is about 20% more expensive than Grand Rapids [3]. I'm always skeptical of Numbeo though, because the numbers are quite off. Basically though, I have US$20k (plus bonus) per year of disposable income after I pay for food, rent, and utilities. [1] https://www.valuepenguin.com/average-cost-of-health-insurance https://www.valuepenguin.com/average-cost-of-health-insuranc... [2] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Australia&country2=United+States&city1=Melbourne&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... [3] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Australia&country2=United+States&city1=Melbourne&city2=Grand+Rapids%2C+MI https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    Thanks for the numbers! The US is great if you're in the top 20%, especially if you're married to another in the top 20%, but otherwise I think most people would be better off in more equitable countries.

zolthrowaway 8y ago

You're right. This is definitely low. I currently live in Pittsburgh. We hire our junior devs at about $65k starting with pretty good benefits. I threw Grand Rapids in a cost of living calculator and it had that salary at about $61k in Grand Rapids (5% cheaper). I'm pretty sure you could get entry level jobs in places like Cleveland and Rochester for similar costs. I haven't looked, but I'd be willing to bet you could get a similar starting salary in North Carolina or Virginia. Everyone is different and I don't want to knock anyone for being happy, but I personally would look to one of the other cheap COL areas if I was starting my career.