4 ms·

I am seeing a huge influx of people into tech just for the money, and personally I'm quite disgusted by that (although I get their motivations behind that behav

by jxub 8y ago

I am seeing a huge influx of people into tech just for the money, and personally I'm quite disgusted by that (although I get their motivations behind that behaviour). Could this relatively huge burnout figure be a direct result of people entering tech just for the money despite not being passionate in it, and realizing being ears deep in code is just not for everyone (esp. every personality type)? On the other hand, the kind of people that like to code tend to despise the modern management style of agile standup scrum master slack jira jockeying, so this clearly is a more complex issue.

foepys 8y ago
I'd argue that the constant need for attention by Slack, co-workers, management, email, meetings, phone etc. is also taking its toll.
- natoliniak 8y ago
  yes, the constant Slack driven "stop and go" workflow is taking a toll on me. Furthermore, Agile which is supposed to protect the worker bees from the constant noise is failing to do that. Business needs always take precedence.
ataturk 8y ago
Why do other people's motivations bother you? I'm disgusted by all kinds of things, too, but other people wanting to go after certain kinds of work because it pays well isn't one of them. Seriously, first world problems there. I fucking hate JIRA and how my current company uses it and that's why I'm leaving. Well, one reason, anyhow. I feel like a damn ticket monkey. Scrum masters should all be taken out and pushed into a ravine.
watwut 8y ago
No, it is pressure and culture that requires long hours. People are able to do job for money for years without being burned out, no matter what job. I would even say that being in job for money only makes you less likely to burn out - because you are more likely to take time off and not take it personally when things break.
- walshemj 8y ago
  I think some of what the previous commentator I have seen people struggle - it was obvious that they had only gone into tech for societal / family reasons. Unfortunately this is the only time I have seen some one genuinely incapable of doing the job.
  - watwut 8y ago
    Plenty of capable people are not obsessed geeks. They just are not, but they are still fully competent. Had tech not earned money, they would happily do something else and would be similarly capable give or take. I think that incapable people are simply that. You can be attracted to technology, spend whole childhood playing with tech and still be dumb. Or too inattentive or too disorganized to actually finish anything larger without help. You can also be smart and love reading/talking about technology and and love those algorithmic puzzlers and still be lazy as hell to do what is actually needed - seeking position where you can hide and pontificate about theories instead of working.
bytematic 8y ago
A lot of those people get filtered at the college level. Dropout rates appear to be around 40-60% in US and UK. I wonder if those you meet do not have a relevant degree.
- walshemj 8y ago
  In which way eg a self taught autodidact or those who have ground their way through a degree mill be rote memorisation?
throwaway37585 8y ago
What exactly are you disgusted by?
ljm 8y ago
I'm not so sure. I've been burned out because I realise that I haven't received compensation that respects my skill-set, because I wasn't seeking fulfilment through the job itself and wanted the extra money to support my efforts in discovering what fulfils me. I've also felt burned out because I went for a total cash grab and, despite the money being amazing, the product I was working on didn't really sing to me. So it turned out that I actually was seeking some fulfilment through work, and there was a balance between the ideal mission and my ideal income. Money might be the easy thing to blame but I'm not convinced by it. Except that someone may think they've landed an easy job and $$$$ and had no realisation that many entry-level programming jobs will pretty much feel like being a worker on a production line. If you're not happy with being a code-monkey and expected some kind of autonomy then that burnout may come along pretty quickly. Pure speculation on my part though.
myWindoonn 8y ago
I burnt out after a few years at Google. It's a real problem. I was heavily involved in open source for a decade, but the stress of Google's bullshit (not to let any other employer in our field off the hook!) was not something that my soul could withstand, and now I hate computers and wish that the entire industry would stop existing, for the sake of everybody's mental health.
- walshemj 8y ago
  What sort of companies have you worked at before if you don't mind me asking. If all your experience hand been in very small companies doing solo work you might have never had to develop the sort of skills needed in large companies.
- digi_owl 8y ago
  hear hear. I try to map out a timeline and it seems to all come out of those years around 2007-2008. For some reason around that point the industry, FOSS included, seemed to decide that most computer owners are idiots, that need to be put in the proverbial padded cell for the well being of both themselves and the larger computer ecosystem. Ever since that time, there have been ever more layers of obfuscation and automation put in that is supposedly there to avoid problems, but more often than not fails to account for any usage scenario outside of the valley mainstream. And thus result in all kinds of added complications that needs to be disabled, bypassed, and monitored as some future patch may well bring them roaring back to life.
resource0x 8y ago
> Could this relatively huge burnout figure be a direct result of people entering tech just for the money I think it's the opposite. People go into tech with high expectations of excitement, and find themselves fighting the framework-of-the-day (chosen by someone else for irrational reasons), coding CRUD, fixing bugs in legacy code, etc., topped off with agile, scrum master slack jira jockeying etc. Burnout IMO is a result of combination of hard work and the sense of absurdity.
- borplk 8y ago
  > sense of absurdity. nailed it
sidlls 8y ago
What, exactly, is disgusting about being motivated by money? With very few exceptions this entire industry is built on being motivated by money. Your objection to it seems misplaced. There are lots of kinds of people who like to code; not all despise management of any sort.

by jxub 8y ago

foepys 8y ago

I'd argue that the constant need for attention by Slack, co-workers, management, email, meetings, phone etc. is also taking its toll.

natoliniak 8y ago
yes, the constant Slack driven "stop and go" workflow is taking a toll on me. Furthermore, Agile which is supposed to protect the worker bees from the constant noise is failing to do that. Business needs always take precedence.

ataturk 8y ago

Why do other people's motivations bother you? I'm disgusted by all kinds of things, too, but other people wanting to go after certain kinds of work because it pays well isn't one of them. Seriously, first world problems there. I fucking hate JIRA and how my current company uses it and that's why I'm leaving. Well, one reason, anyhow. I feel like a damn ticket monkey. Scrum masters should all be taken out and pushed into a ravine.

watwut 8y ago

No, it is pressure and culture that requires long hours. People are able to do job for money for years without being burned out, no matter what job. I would even say that being in job for money only makes you less likely to burn out - because you are more likely to take time off and not take it personally when things break.

walshemj 8y ago
I think some of what the previous commentator I have seen people struggle - it was obvious that they had only gone into tech for societal / family reasons. Unfortunately this is the only time I have seen some one genuinely incapable of doing the job.
- watwut 8y ago
  Plenty of capable people are not obsessed geeks. They just are not, but they are still fully competent. Had tech not earned money, they would happily do something else and would be similarly capable give or take. I think that incapable people are simply that. You can be attracted to technology, spend whole childhood playing with tech and still be dumb. Or too inattentive or too disorganized to actually finish anything larger without help. You can also be smart and love reading/talking about technology and and love those algorithmic puzzlers and still be lazy as hell to do what is actually needed - seeking position where you can hide and pontificate about theories instead of working.

bytematic 8y ago

A lot of those people get filtered at the college level. Dropout rates appear to be around 40-60% in US and UK. I wonder if those you meet do not have a relevant degree.

walshemj 8y ago
In which way eg a self taught autodidact or those who have ground their way through a degree mill be rote memorisation?

throwaway37585 8y ago

What exactly are you disgusted by?

ljm 8y ago

I'm not so sure. I've been burned out because I realise that I haven't received compensation that respects my skill-set, because I wasn't seeking fulfilment through the job itself and wanted the extra money to support my efforts in discovering what fulfils me. I've also felt burned out because I went for a total cash grab and, despite the money being amazing, the product I was working on didn't really sing to me. So it turned out that I actually was seeking some fulfilment through work, and there was a balance between the ideal mission and my ideal income. Money might be the easy thing to blame but I'm not convinced by it. Except that someone may think they've landed an easy job and $$$$ and had no realisation that many entry-level programming jobs will pretty much feel like being a worker on a production line. If you're not happy with being a code-monkey and expected some kind of autonomy then that burnout may come along pretty quickly. Pure speculation on my part though.

myWindoonn 8y ago

I burnt out after a few years at Google. It's a real problem. I was heavily involved in open source for a decade, but the stress of Google's bullshit (not to let any other employer in our field off the hook!) was not something that my soul could withstand, and now I hate computers and wish that the entire industry would stop existing, for the sake of everybody's mental health.

walshemj 8y ago
What sort of companies have you worked at before if you don't mind me asking. If all your experience hand been in very small companies doing solo work you might have never had to develop the sort of skills needed in large companies.
digi_owl 8y ago
hear hear. I try to map out a timeline and it seems to all come out of those years around 2007-2008. For some reason around that point the industry, FOSS included, seemed to decide that most computer owners are idiots, that need to be put in the proverbial padded cell for the well being of both themselves and the larger computer ecosystem. Ever since that time, there have been ever more layers of obfuscation and automation put in that is supposedly there to avoid problems, but more often than not fails to account for any usage scenario outside of the valley mainstream. And thus result in all kinds of added complications that needs to be disabled, bypassed, and monitored as some future patch may well bring them roaring back to life.

resource0x 8y ago

> Could this relatively huge burnout figure be a direct result of people entering tech just for the money I think it's the opposite. People go into tech with high expectations of excitement, and find themselves fighting the framework-of-the-day (chosen by someone else for irrational reasons), coding CRUD, fixing bugs in legacy code, etc., topped off with agile, scrum master slack jira jockeying etc. Burnout IMO is a result of combination of hard work and the sense of absurdity.

borplk 8y ago
> sense of absurdity. nailed it

sidlls 8y ago

What, exactly, is disgusting about being motivated by money? With very few exceptions this entire industry is built on being motivated by money. Your objection to it seems misplaced. There are lots of kinds of people who like to code; not all despise management of any sort.