4 ms·

I'm a little surprised so many people still buy large numbers of alkaline batteries. NiMH rechargeables are readily available, have a fairly low cost to get sta

by Zak 8y ago

I'm a little surprised so many people still buy large numbers of alkaline batteries. NiMH rechargeables are readily available, have a fairly low cost to get started with a battery/charger bundle, save a significant amount of money over time and have vastly better performance in higher-drain devices like cameras and flashlights.

moogly 8y ago
Many devices can't deal with the lower voltage (1.2V vs 1.5V). About half of my AA/AAA devices don't work at all.
- 0xcde4c3db 8y ago
  Many rechargeables are also slightly larger than typical alkalines. This can cause them to be difficult to remove from devices where they're inserted end-on, such as flashlights and Xbox 360 controllers.
- Zak 8y ago
  Those devices must have very short runtimes on alkalines. Even a 0.2A load on an alkaline AA puts it under 1.2V for most of its discharge capacity[0]. That's not an especially high load; it's the amount that will drain it in 11 hours of use, but if the device quits at 1.2V, it will only run for 4.5 hours. It would not surprise me to learn that the designers of a consumer electronic device did a bad job, but I'd describe not working with 1.2V batteries when a device is intended for AA or AAA to be a pretty major design flaw. [0] https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Amazon%20basic%20AA%20UK.html https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Amazon%20basic%20...
  - mmt 8y ago
    > it will only run for 4.5 hours That seems plenty long for something like a TV remote, if "run" includes the amount of time that buttons are depressed. > It would not surprise me This is inconsistent with your original comment that claims "a little surprise". Consumer behavior responds to actual products, not someone's standard of engineering design.
    - Zak 8y ago
      I was surprised by the consumer behavior until I learned that it's motivated by a common design flaw. I am not surprised that such a design flaw exists, but I did not anticipate it specifically. Clear and consistent now? TV remotes are pretty low-drain, to the point that most people probably wouldn't notice their battery runtime unless asked to observe it. A more compelling argument for NiMH in devices like that would be that alkalines often leak electrolyte that can corrode and damage a device wile NiMH is nearly immune to that kind of problem. None of which matters if the device won't actually run on NiMH.
      - mmt 8y ago
        > I was surprised by the consumer behavior until I learned I guess the history is relatively tough to research these without having lived through it, since that's before the popularization of the web. An interesting more modern use case is Apple's wireless keyboards when they used AAs. I'd suggest you check that out. > I am not surprised that such a design flaw exists I'd strongly suggest you consider the complexity, cost, and efficiency tradeoffs involved in RF (and other analog) silicon design, especially in miniaturized consumer products, before characterizing certain decisions as flaws. Sometimes, worse is better. > TV remotes are pretty low-drain, to the point that most people probably wouldn't notice their battery runtime unless asked to observe it. That's my point. What they notice is how often they have to change (or recharge) the batteries. Historically, with rechargeables, that's been way too often. To be fair, anecdotally, I've noticed this with some cheaper/off-brand alkalines, as well. > A more compelling argument for NiMH in devices like that would be that alkalines often leak electrolyte that can corrode and damage a device wile NiMH is nearly immune to that kind of problem. I think "often" is, at best, an exaggeration. Do you have published numbers to back that up? My impression based on personal experience is that during the normal, useful life, it is vanishingly rare. I've only ever had leakage damage occur from fully-discharged (usually through self-discharge after over a year of disuse), and that was replaced by the battery manufacter, one of the advantages of paying more for brand-name.
        Zak 8y ago
        > I'd strongly suggest you consider the complexity, cost, and efficiency tradeoffs... before characterizing certain decisions as flaws. I will almost always characterize a tradeoff that renders a device incompatible with rechargeable batteries that are commonly used in the appropriate form factor, or that causes the device to turn off before the majority of the energy in the battery has been used to be a flaw. I'll stipulate that it's probably usually a business decision rather than an engineering failure. Incompatibility with rechargeable batteries is a hard no-buy from me as a consumer for almost any portable electronics. > Do you have published numbers to back that up?* I don't. I suspect people who have numbers about this (battery makers) really don't want to disclose them. My perception that alkalines leak often comes from moderating /r/flashlight. I've also seen it in person quite a few times, mostly with devices belonging to friends or family that aren't used often.
tdiggity 8y ago
I believe there’s a faster drop-off rate to dead on rechargeables, so they aren’t ideal for things like smoke alarms or even smart-locks.
- Zak 8y ago
  That's true. I would recommend a regular charging schedule for such devices rather than waiting for them to complain about the batteries being low. A regular replacement schedule for smoke detector batteries is already a common recommendation from fire departments and insurance companies. Rechargeable batteries remove the loss aversion associated with ensuring the batteries in a device are fresh, as there's essentially no extra cost to recharging a battery that may still have significant energy in it. Modern NiMH does not develop a permanent memory effect, and rarely even develops a temporary one.
nomisjacob 8y ago
beeing the "tech-guy" i have a bunch of alkalines in my backpack and at home because people often come to me to if their batteries dies and they need a new one quick. Other than that, it's mostly missinformation that's still around about rechargable batteries.
discreditable 8y ago
It's hard for the pricing to work out unless you know you'll use them for a while. A 48-pack of Amazon AAs is $13.29 [1]. A 16-pack of Amazon rechargable AAs is $24.99 [2]. Ignoring the cost of a charger, the rechargables won't pay for themselves unless you go through 4 recharge cycles. If you add the $14.99 charger [3] for your first order, then you need 5 cycles on all of the batteries (80 cycles total) for it to be worth it. 1. https://amzn.com/B00MNV8E0C https://amzn.com/B00MNV8E0C 2. https://amzn.com/B007B9NV8Q https://amzn.com/B007B9NV8Q 3. https://amzn.com/B00TOVTZ7K https://amzn.com/B00TOVTZ7K
- Zak 8y ago
  I would be surprised if most people don't still have a use for AA and AAA batteries in a decade. A relatively light user should manage a charge cycle every couple of years, and NiMH batteries have a useful life longer than 10 years.
  - mmt 8y ago
    I think that something you're forgetting is that, though, as you mention, self-discharge has come a long way (as has charger technology, which I'm not sure has been mentioned), that doesn't mean every single product on the market actually benefits from these advances. A consumer need only be "burned" once to form or strengthen the perception that rechargeables are an inferior good. Oh, and where are we on the capacity front?
    - Zak 8y ago
      Capacity for LSD AA is about 2000 mAh; capacity for higher self-discharge is about 2500 mAh. That is lower under extremely light loads than the best alkalines, but crosses over at a bit over 12 hours constant runtime since load has a relatively small effect on NiMH capacity, but a huge effect on alkaline capacity. > A consumer need only be "burned" once to form or strengthen the perception that rechargeables are an inferior good. Alkalines can leak corrosive electrolyte and destroy devices. This is a fairly well-known issue, but it doesn't seem like "always use rechargeable batteries so you don't ruin your stuff" is a widespread meme among the average consumer. I wonder why that is.
city41 8y ago
I'm more surprised on the front that I essentially own nothing now that uses regular batteries. Even my TV remote is recharged by plugging in a USB cable.
- Zak 8y ago
  Probably a non-user-serviceable Li-ion. I dislike that trend, especially when there are Li-ions in standard cylindrical form factors that could be just as easily changed as AA or AAA. Possible counterpoint: getting a Li-ion 14500 confused with a AA and putting it in an incompatible device is bad.
tomjen3 8y ago
Most of the devices that I use batteries for are not high drain, not even my flashlights (because LEDs). I would prefer always having a stack of batteries to having to buy more (because they are always in use) and remember which are charged. My camera, laptop, smartphone, kindle, etc all have their own rechargable battery, so what is left is mostly my Ikea tradlos, kitchen scale and car keys (plus associated stuff that i forget and which therefore can be assumed not to need all that much recharging) which all runs on the super small batteries (2032? 3220? something like that), that I haven't seen as a rechargeable model. No doubt this will change with kids, but until I have them they won't matter.
- Zak 8y ago
  LED flashlights can be extremely high-drain depending on the ratio of output to size, but "high-drain" with regard to battery performance may be lower than you think. If 12 hours of constant operation will drain the batteries, low-self-discharge NiMH like white Eneloops or AmazonBasics will outlast any brand of alkaline. Higher self-discharge (loss of charge when not in use) offers more capacity, and only extremely low-drain devices will last marginally longer with alkaline. There are Li-ion button cells such as 2032, but their voltage range is higher than the disposables and their capacity is quite low. Their applications are fairly niche.
ams6110 8y ago
I've tried using rechargeables a few times and it never works out over the long-term. They get thrown away by people who don't realize they are rechargeable, you end up with one less than you need, you forget to charge them, it's just a pain compared to having a supply of disposable batteries that have a good shelf life and are always ready to use
- snom380 8y ago
  I used to have the same opinion, but modern NiMH batteries have far longer shelf live than they used to, and the price is low enough that you can afford to keep some spares in an 8 battery charger ready to use. I do have a set of alkaline batteries, but I haven't used them in 3 years.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  > you forget to charge them Just keep a couple extra charged and ready around the house that you can swap in if necessary.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

by Zak 8y ago

moogly 8y ago

Many devices can't deal with the lower voltage (1.2V vs 1.5V). About half of my AA/AAA devices don't work at all.

0xcde4c3db 8y ago
Many rechargeables are also slightly larger than typical alkalines. This can cause them to be difficult to remove from devices where they're inserted end-on, such as flashlights and Xbox 360 controllers.
Zak 8y ago
Those devices must have very short runtimes on alkalines. Even a 0.2A load on an alkaline AA puts it under 1.2V for most of its discharge capacity[0]. That's not an especially high load; it's the amount that will drain it in 11 hours of use, but if the device quits at 1.2V, it will only run for 4.5 hours. It would not surprise me to learn that the designers of a consumer electronic device did a bad job, but I'd describe not working with 1.2V batteries when a device is intended for AA or AAA to be a pretty major design flaw. [0] https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Amazon%20basic%20AA%20UK.html https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Amazon%20basic%20...
- mmt 8y ago
  > it will only run for 4.5 hours That seems plenty long for something like a TV remote, if "run" includes the amount of time that buttons are depressed. > It would not surprise me This is inconsistent with your original comment that claims "a little surprise". Consumer behavior responds to actual products, not someone's standard of engineering design.
  - Zak 8y ago
    I was surprised by the consumer behavior until I learned that it's motivated by a common design flaw. I am not surprised that such a design flaw exists, but I did not anticipate it specifically. Clear and consistent now? TV remotes are pretty low-drain, to the point that most people probably wouldn't notice their battery runtime unless asked to observe it. A more compelling argument for NiMH in devices like that would be that alkalines often leak electrolyte that can corrode and damage a device wile NiMH is nearly immune to that kind of problem. None of which matters if the device won't actually run on NiMH.
    - mmt 8y ago
      > I was surprised by the consumer behavior until I learned I guess the history is relatively tough to research these without having lived through it, since that's before the popularization of the web. An interesting more modern use case is Apple's wireless keyboards when they used AAs. I'd suggest you check that out. > I am not surprised that such a design flaw exists I'd strongly suggest you consider the complexity, cost, and efficiency tradeoffs involved in RF (and other analog) silicon design, especially in miniaturized consumer products, before characterizing certain decisions as flaws. Sometimes, worse is better. > TV remotes are pretty low-drain, to the point that most people probably wouldn't notice their battery runtime unless asked to observe it. That's my point. What they notice is how often they have to change (or recharge) the batteries. Historically, with rechargeables, that's been way too often. To be fair, anecdotally, I've noticed this with some cheaper/off-brand alkalines, as well. > A more compelling argument for NiMH in devices like that would be that alkalines often leak electrolyte that can corrode and damage a device wile NiMH is nearly immune to that kind of problem. I think "often" is, at best, an exaggeration. Do you have published numbers to back that up? My impression based on personal experience is that during the normal, useful life, it is vanishingly rare. I've only ever had leakage damage occur from fully-discharged (usually through self-discharge after over a year of disuse), and that was replaced by the battery manufacter, one of the advantages of paying more for brand-name.
      - Zak 8y ago
        > I'd strongly suggest you consider the complexity, cost, and efficiency tradeoffs... before characterizing certain decisions as flaws. I will almost always characterize a tradeoff that renders a device incompatible with rechargeable batteries that are commonly used in the appropriate form factor, or that causes the device to turn off before the majority of the energy in the battery has been used to be a flaw. I'll stipulate that it's probably usually a business decision rather than an engineering failure. Incompatibility with rechargeable batteries is a hard no-buy from me as a consumer for almost any portable electronics. > Do you have published numbers to back that up?* I don't. I suspect people who have numbers about this (battery makers) really don't want to disclose them. My perception that alkalines leak often comes from moderating /r/flashlight. I've also seen it in person quite a few times, mostly with devices belonging to friends or family that aren't used often.

tdiggity 8y ago

I believe there’s a faster drop-off rate to dead on rechargeables, so they aren’t ideal for things like smoke alarms or even smart-locks.

Zak 8y ago
That's true. I would recommend a regular charging schedule for such devices rather than waiting for them to complain about the batteries being low. A regular replacement schedule for smoke detector batteries is already a common recommendation from fire departments and insurance companies. Rechargeable batteries remove the loss aversion associated with ensuring the batteries in a device are fresh, as there's essentially no extra cost to recharging a battery that may still have significant energy in it. Modern NiMH does not develop a permanent memory effect, and rarely even develops a temporary one.

nomisjacob 8y ago

beeing the "tech-guy" i have a bunch of alkalines in my backpack and at home because people often come to me to if their batteries dies and they need a new one quick. Other than that, it's mostly missinformation that's still around about rechargable batteries.

discreditable 8y ago

It's hard for the pricing to work out unless you know you'll use them for a while. A 48-pack of Amazon AAs is $13.29 [1]. A 16-pack of Amazon rechargable AAs is $24.99 [2]. Ignoring the cost of a charger, the rechargables won't pay for themselves unless you go through 4 recharge cycles. If you add the $14.99 charger [3] for your first order, then you need 5 cycles on all of the batteries (80 cycles total) for it to be worth it. 1. https://amzn.com/B00MNV8E0C https://amzn.com/B00MNV8E0C 2. https://amzn.com/B007B9NV8Q https://amzn.com/B007B9NV8Q 3. https://amzn.com/B00TOVTZ7K https://amzn.com/B00TOVTZ7K

Zak 8y ago
I would be surprised if most people don't still have a use for AA and AAA batteries in a decade. A relatively light user should manage a charge cycle every couple of years, and NiMH batteries have a useful life longer than 10 years.
- mmt 8y ago
  I think that something you're forgetting is that, though, as you mention, self-discharge has come a long way (as has charger technology, which I'm not sure has been mentioned), that doesn't mean every single product on the market actually benefits from these advances. A consumer need only be "burned" once to form or strengthen the perception that rechargeables are an inferior good. Oh, and where are we on the capacity front?
  - Zak 8y ago
    Capacity for LSD AA is about 2000 mAh; capacity for higher self-discharge is about 2500 mAh. That is lower under extremely light loads than the best alkalines, but crosses over at a bit over 12 hours constant runtime since load has a relatively small effect on NiMH capacity, but a huge effect on alkaline capacity. > A consumer need only be "burned" once to form or strengthen the perception that rechargeables are an inferior good. Alkalines can leak corrosive electrolyte and destroy devices. This is a fairly well-known issue, but it doesn't seem like "always use rechargeable batteries so you don't ruin your stuff" is a widespread meme among the average consumer. I wonder why that is.

city41 8y ago

I'm more surprised on the front that I essentially own nothing now that uses regular batteries. Even my TV remote is recharged by plugging in a USB cable.

Zak 8y ago
Probably a non-user-serviceable Li-ion. I dislike that trend, especially when there are Li-ions in standard cylindrical form factors that could be just as easily changed as AA or AAA. Possible counterpoint: getting a Li-ion 14500 confused with a AA and putting it in an incompatible device is bad.

tomjen3 8y ago

Most of the devices that I use batteries for are not high drain, not even my flashlights (because LEDs). I would prefer always having a stack of batteries to having to buy more (because they are always in use) and remember which are charged. My camera, laptop, smartphone, kindle, etc all have their own rechargable battery, so what is left is mostly my Ikea tradlos, kitchen scale and car keys (plus associated stuff that i forget and which therefore can be assumed not to need all that much recharging) which all runs on the super small batteries (2032? 3220? something like that), that I haven't seen as a rechargeable model. No doubt this will change with kids, but until I have them they won't matter.

Zak 8y ago
LED flashlights can be extremely high-drain depending on the ratio of output to size, but "high-drain" with regard to battery performance may be lower than you think. If 12 hours of constant operation will drain the batteries, low-self-discharge NiMH like white Eneloops or AmazonBasics will outlast any brand of alkaline. Higher self-discharge (loss of charge when not in use) offers more capacity, and only extremely low-drain devices will last marginally longer with alkaline. There are Li-ion button cells such as 2032, but their voltage range is higher than the disposables and their capacity is quite low. Their applications are fairly niche.

ams6110 8y ago

I've tried using rechargeables a few times and it never works out over the long-term. They get thrown away by people who don't realize they are rechargeable, you end up with one less than you need, you forget to charge them, it's just a pain compared to having a supply of disposable batteries that have a good shelf life and are always ready to use

snom380 8y ago
I used to have the same opinion, but modern NiMH batteries have far longer shelf live than they used to, and the price is low enough that you can afford to keep some spares in an 8 battery charger ready to use. I do have a set of alkaline batteries, but I haven't used them in 3 years.
saagarjha 8y ago
> you forget to charge them Just keep a couple extra charged and ready around the house that you can swap in if necessary.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]