3 ms·

Old in Art School

29 points by misotaur 8y ago

scarecrowbob 8y ago
I'm glad that Nell Painter found good things in those classes, but as someone in their 40s who has come out of academia, the idea of studying at a college again is a bit strange to me. Like, I quit a PhD program between passing my quals and defending a dissertation, but even with my "incomplete" education, I feel like I have enough authority to learn whatever I want to learn outside of the framework of academia. For instance, the lesson about being able to just erase 10 hours worth of work... that's something that all of us who have ever worked on about any large project probably already know-- as a writer, I suspect that the author of this piece already knew that lesson, even if she hadn't felt authorized to apply it to a field where she wasn't credentialed. So I wonder about the value of returning to an undergraduate education. As a musician, I still learn new instruments, but my education has gone from getting weekly lessons and being in beginner bands to playing low-rent shows and getting single lessons from masters (Floyd Domino, if you are reading this, I will call you back Monday). After we have a good humanities-based education, I wonder if we ought to be able to teach ourselves. I'm curious what other folks thoughts about that are: it's not that with a good education in "learning how to study" I don't ever need input from masters, but more that I'm skeptical that I'd need an entire undergraduate course to motivate me to carry out enough work to learn a craft.
- ghaff 8y ago
  I'm pretty much with you. I could use a little more structure in some areas probably but that's really on me. So much content and study material is available out there. What's missing I guess is interactions (which are probably more important in something like art than in other things) but you're going to be somewhat of a fish out of water. In any case, I can't imagine having the patience knowing that I don't care about the credential to not only really focus on the parts I'm interested in but in all the things I'm not interested in because they're part of a core curriculum or whatever.
- malodyets 8y ago
  I had a similar experience: After earning an MA in 1993 and going into the world of business, I decided a couple of years ago to have a go at another MA. I only did it for 8 weeks, because it became clear that it wasn't a good fit. During that time, I was surprised (1) at how easy the coursework was, (2) how pedantic all the busywork, (3) how inefficient the learning process. I've been self-educating in every area of interest for a long time, so this was a "real eye-opener, and no mistake" (imagining Rob Inglis putting on a hobbit accent...) The structure of our education system is still industrial-aged, in which the way to be 'educated' in an area is to go through the proper production process. But I would rather have a good conversation with a master. I read a book a few years ago that defined a good education as "Thomas Jefferson on one end of a log, and the student on the other," free to talk. [1] [1] _A Thomas Jefferson Education_ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0048EJXUC/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0048EJXUC/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...
- JasonFruit 8y ago
  The phrase, "I have enough authority to learn whatever I want to learn outside the framework of academia," strikes me in an odd way. I'm inclined to say that no literate person needs the academic framework to learn anything for which they have the underpinnings; that is to say, as long as they start close enough to the beginning, they can learn anything they please — especially if they're willing to seek out expert assistance as needed, like you. What is it about your Ph.D experience that makes you feel more able to learn authoritatively? I think I'm missing something there.
  - steev 8y ago
    I'm not the OP, but I can say that pursuing anything where you have to spend large amounts of time learning on your own to achieve a deep understanding of a topic gives you valuable learning skills. I find people from these paths typically learn topics more quickly and with a better understanding than someone finishing their undergrad degree. Maybe that is what OP was getting at.
  - scarecrowbob 8y ago
    Well, to be frank-- you're right. To some extent we are all the arbiters of what constitutes satisfactory learning. My experience of grad school was that it aimed to modify how I learned. To a certain extent, newly minted PhDs are still only experts in the barest sense, but getting a PhD is the point at which people become more-or-less "on their own" as scholars... when they publish work, it's no longer "student" work, it is work that is put out by a person who has passed a qualifying exam and defended their ideas against a panel of peers. This is a process of how new academically-blessed authors are created: it's a process of authorization. There's a certain amount of authority that this conveys to say "I've learned this stuff, here's what I found." That "authority" only exists within the framework of academia, and we are all free folks who have that authority from birth. So yeah, you're right that we have this authority in general from birth. But to a certain extent, gaining that authority in that context is the process of pursuing a PhD, and once you have that I am not seeing what there is to gain even within that context. Does that clarify what I am wondering?
    - 8y ago
- telesilla 8y ago
  Art school isn't much like other kinds of academia: it's similar to music school in that it's focused on creativity, and whatever it takes to maximise that creativity. Coursework isn't rote learning or repeating facts or applying algorithms: it's understanding the work of other artists, and your place among them - and then putting that creativity into practice with the mentorship of a teacher you (hopefully) admire. I think it's a fantastic idea for mature students. I've always wanted to go and do undergraduate classes in calculus, but that seems like it would be quite a leap from my current existence and I'm not quite ready to rock that boat.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    Having taken undergraduate classes in calculus (at a good school), I'm afraid you'd be very disappointed. They're typically huge core courses taught in lecture halls with smaller recitations with TAs (graduate students). I doubt there's anything about typical freshman calculus you couldn't replicate with a MOOC. Here's video of MIT's first-semester calculus course right here (from a number of years back though I doubt calculus has changed much): https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-01-single-variable-calculus-fall-2006/video-lectures/ https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-01-single-variabl...
    - dsajames 8y ago
      This is only true for the lower levels of math. Like all subjects, you need a baseline. Even art 101 has to walk you through the basics. The more advanced math classes are much more 'creative'. They don't stress doing it your own way per say, but find a way when a clear way isn't obvious. In the end, you still have to get an answer right, even if it's unknown to mankind.
  - jonhendry18 8y ago
    "I've always wanted to go and do undergraduate classes in calculus, but that seems like it would be quite a leap from my current existence and I'm not quite ready to rock that boat." I did this in my 30s, having had my butt kicked by calculus as an undergrad in 89/90. I took a couple of courses at a state school over the summer. Wound up getting an A and a B, which I was happy with. It felt a little weird being so much older than everyone else, but it wasn't a big deal. Contrary to ghaff's observation, these weren't huge lecture courses. Presumably because they were held in summer.
vertexFarm 8y ago
One of my favorite acquaintances from my days in school was a much older student from South Korea who often told stories of his time in mandatory military duty patrolling the DMZ, including a harrowing story of nearly setting off an international incident because he mistook a wild pig for a North Korean soldier and set off a grenade. Definitely a series of experiences completely outside my context. I found it was important to hear about his experiences, and age difference obviously plays a part in facilitating this. Another South Korean classmate turned 18 in school and got shipped back to the DMZ. He didn't get hurt or anything, but I don't think he ever made it back to school in the states, which is a shame.
oddity 8y ago
I wish we were in a world where we wouldn't associate schooling with childhood or young adulthood. I feel like this would be easier if we, as a society, weren't pushing young adults to enter colleges and universities and turning them into job training programs and resume-bait.

29 points by misotaur 8y ago

I'm glad that Nell Painter found good things in those classes, but as someone in their 40s who has come out of academia, the idea of studying at a college again is a bit strange to me. Like, I quit a PhD program between passing my quals and defending a dissertation, but even with my "incomplete" education, I feel like I have enough authority to learn whatever I want to learn outside of the framework of academia. For instance, the lesson about being able to just erase 10 hours worth of work... that's something that all of us who have ever worked on about any large project probably already know-- as a writer, I suspect that the author of this piece already knew that lesson, even if she hadn't felt authorized to apply it to a field where she wasn't credentialed. So I wonder about the value of returning to an undergraduate education. As a musician, I still learn new instruments, but my education has gone from getting weekly lessons and being in beginner bands to playing low-rent shows and getting single lessons from masters (Floyd Domino, if you are reading this, I will call you back Monday). After we have a good humanities-based education, I wonder if we ought to be able to teach ourselves. I'm curious what other folks thoughts about that are: it's not that with a good education in "learning how to study" I don't ever need input from masters, but more that I'm skeptical that I'd need an entire undergraduate course to motivate me to carry out enough work to learn a craft.

ghaff 8y ago
I'm pretty much with you. I could use a little more structure in some areas probably but that's really on me. So much content and study material is available out there. What's missing I guess is interactions (which are probably more important in something like art than in other things) but you're going to be somewhat of a fish out of water. In any case, I can't imagine having the patience knowing that I don't care about the credential to not only really focus on the parts I'm interested in but in all the things I'm not interested in because they're part of a core curriculum or whatever.
malodyets 8y ago
I had a similar experience: After earning an MA in 1993 and going into the world of business, I decided a couple of years ago to have a go at another MA. I only did it for 8 weeks, because it became clear that it wasn't a good fit. During that time, I was surprised (1) at how easy the coursework was, (2) how pedantic all the busywork, (3) how inefficient the learning process. I've been self-educating in every area of interest for a long time, so this was a "real eye-opener, and no mistake" (imagining Rob Inglis putting on a hobbit accent...) The structure of our education system is still industrial-aged, in which the way to be 'educated' in an area is to go through the proper production process. But I would rather have a good conversation with a master. I read a book a few years ago that defined a good education as "Thomas Jefferson on one end of a log, and the student on the other," free to talk. [1] [1] _A Thomas Jefferson Education_ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0048EJXUC/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0048EJXUC/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...
JasonFruit 8y ago
The phrase, "I have enough authority to learn whatever I want to learn outside the framework of academia," strikes me in an odd way. I'm inclined to say that no literate person needs the academic framework to learn anything for which they have the underpinnings; that is to say, as long as they start close enough to the beginning, they can learn anything they please — especially if they're willing to seek out expert assistance as needed, like you. What is it about your Ph.D experience that makes you feel more able to learn authoritatively? I think I'm missing something there.
- steev 8y ago
  I'm not the OP, but I can say that pursuing anything where you have to spend large amounts of time learning on your own to achieve a deep understanding of a topic gives you valuable learning skills. I find people from these paths typically learn topics more quickly and with a better understanding than someone finishing their undergrad degree. Maybe that is what OP was getting at.
- scarecrowbob 8y ago
  Well, to be frank-- you're right. To some extent we are all the arbiters of what constitutes satisfactory learning. My experience of grad school was that it aimed to modify how I learned. To a certain extent, newly minted PhDs are still only experts in the barest sense, but getting a PhD is the point at which people become more-or-less "on their own" as scholars... when they publish work, it's no longer "student" work, it is work that is put out by a person who has passed a qualifying exam and defended their ideas against a panel of peers. This is a process of how new academically-blessed authors are created: it's a process of authorization. There's a certain amount of authority that this conveys to say "I've learned this stuff, here's what I found." That "authority" only exists within the framework of academia, and we are all free folks who have that authority from birth. So yeah, you're right that we have this authority in general from birth. But to a certain extent, gaining that authority in that context is the process of pursuing a PhD, and once you have that I am not seeing what there is to gain even within that context. Does that clarify what I am wondering?
  - 8y ago
telesilla 8y ago
Art school isn't much like other kinds of academia: it's similar to music school in that it's focused on creativity, and whatever it takes to maximise that creativity. Coursework isn't rote learning or repeating facts or applying algorithms: it's understanding the work of other artists, and your place among them - and then putting that creativity into practice with the mentorship of a teacher you (hopefully) admire. I think it's a fantastic idea for mature students. I've always wanted to go and do undergraduate classes in calculus, but that seems like it would be quite a leap from my current existence and I'm not quite ready to rock that boat.
- ghaff 8y ago
  Having taken undergraduate classes in calculus (at a good school), I'm afraid you'd be very disappointed. They're typically huge core courses taught in lecture halls with smaller recitations with TAs (graduate students). I doubt there's anything about typical freshman calculus you couldn't replicate with a MOOC. Here's video of MIT's first-semester calculus course right here (from a number of years back though I doubt calculus has changed much): https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-01-single-variable-calculus-fall-2006/video-lectures/ https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-01-single-variabl...
  - dsajames 8y ago
    This is only true for the lower levels of math. Like all subjects, you need a baseline. Even art 101 has to walk you through the basics. The more advanced math classes are much more 'creative'. They don't stress doing it your own way per say, but find a way when a clear way isn't obvious. In the end, you still have to get an answer right, even if it's unknown to mankind.
- jonhendry18 8y ago
  "I've always wanted to go and do undergraduate classes in calculus, but that seems like it would be quite a leap from my current existence and I'm not quite ready to rock that boat." I did this in my 30s, having had my butt kicked by calculus as an undergrad in 89/90. I took a couple of courses at a state school over the summer. Wound up getting an A and a B, which I was happy with. It felt a little weird being so much older than everyone else, but it wasn't a big deal. Contrary to ghaff's observation, these weren't huge lecture courses. Presumably because they were held in summer.

vertexFarm 8y ago

One of my favorite acquaintances from my days in school was a much older student from South Korea who often told stories of his time in mandatory military duty patrolling the DMZ, including a harrowing story of nearly setting off an international incident because he mistook a wild pig for a North Korean soldier and set off a grenade. Definitely a series of experiences completely outside my context. I found it was important to hear about his experiences, and age difference obviously plays a part in facilitating this. Another South Korean classmate turned 18 in school and got shipped back to the DMZ. He didn't get hurt or anything, but I don't think he ever made it back to school in the states, which is a shame.

oddity 8y ago

I wish we were in a world where we wouldn't associate schooling with childhood or young adulthood. I feel like this would be easier if we, as a society, weren't pushing young adults to enter colleges and universities and turning them into job training programs and resume-bait.