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Exactly: No crypto in it's current state is liquid enough for any serious moving of money. Slipping, fees (and potential hedging costs) will eat you if you need

Exactly: No crypto in it's current state is liquid enough for any serious moving of money. Slipping, fees (and potential hedging costs) will eat you if you need to to move serious money. As such it only works for entities who don't have vast amounts of capital, eg. people who can't afford an army of tax lawyers to create complex legal tax evasion schemes to pay less tax than the rest of us.

stryk 8y ago
If I'm moving stolen money (or magic math coins or whatever) I don't give a damn about the fees - it's 100% profit either way. It costs money to have it laundered, whether that goes to a shady lawyer(s) or a Bitcoin processor who cares, it doesn't matter it's all profit for the thief.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > I don't give a damn about the fees - it's 100% profit either way If I worked in your criminal enterprise, I'd could tell your deputies "look at this chump, throwing money away. I'll hire trucks to haul cash and boost our profits by 20%. Help me 'replace' the leader and I'll split those gains with you."
  - stryk 8y ago
    That's not how dirty money works if you want to get away with it. You need to launder it -- put it into something legitimate and, most importantly, get something back out of it that looks legitimate enough to pass casual scrutiny -- for this service anything and anyone, legit or not, is going to take a cut (or "fee"). It's the cost of doing criminal business. And if you're in a criminal enterprise and you even talk to the other members of the ent. about how you're going to move your money you ain't gonna be in the enterprise very long. That type of dirt you do by your lonesome or you die.
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      Needing to pay fees is different from not "giv[ing] a damn about the fees." I understand I have to pay a broker's fee when I buy and sell stock. That doesn't mean I'm indifferent to its level. Using Bitcoin to surreptitiously move large quantities of funds is almost always riskier and more expensive than traditional money-laundering techniques.
      - stryk 8y ago
        And how may I ask did you come to this conclusion? Have you ever actually laundered dirty money?
        JumpCrisscross 8y ago
        > Have you ever actually laundered dirty money? No. My knowledge comes from anti-money laundering training. Depending on how fast one needs to move, money laundering fees go from 5% to 30%. Bitcoin is cheaper than that per se. But include the costs of anonymising and cleanly cash out, and you're just adding cost and risk over a wire transfer between fronts.
        stryk 8y ago
        No man, there's so much more exposure that way. And remember, this is a criminal enterprise. Those people who run your fronts could just as easily rob/kill you and take it for themselves, and given the chance they will. With bitcoins you can 1) do it yourself, no middlemen other than the bitcoin processor who doesn't give a flying right-hand fuck where the money comes from, and 2) do it far, far, far quicker than traditional methods. A thief isn't going to give a damn about fees, I'm tellin ya, in the end it's all profit for them. Get in, get it, and get out. If I hit a lick for $100k, flip it in a couple days while interacting with not another soul but lose 30k to fees, I'm still up 70k that's a good lick. and if I paid the 30k to not have to deal with ANYONE face-to-face (least of all other criminals) that's worth it in spades because I'm not spending MY 30k, I'm spending YOUR 30k.
jonhendry18 8y ago
"No crypto in it's current state is liquid enough for any serious moving of money" It's more liquid than real estate, which is widely used for money laundering.
- sgt101 8y ago
  I don't think so. If someone put 5K BTC up for sale on one day the price of the whole market would be disrupted, but similar sales happen in London and New York every day and the market seems unbothered.
  - mike10010100 8y ago
    > If someone put 5K BTC up for sale on one day the price of the whole market would be disrupted https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/15/researchers-finds-that-one-person-likely-drove-bitcoin-from-150-to-1000/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/15/researchers-finds-that-one...

stryk 8y ago

If I'm moving stolen money (or magic math coins or whatever) I don't give a damn about the fees - it's 100% profit either way. It costs money to have it laundered, whether that goes to a shady lawyer(s) or a Bitcoin processor who cares, it doesn't matter it's all profit for the thief.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> I don't give a damn about the fees - it's 100% profit either way If I worked in your criminal enterprise, I'd could tell your deputies "look at this chump, throwing money away. I'll hire trucks to haul cash and boost our profits by 20%. Help me 'replace' the leader and I'll split those gains with you."
- stryk 8y ago
  That's not how dirty money works if you want to get away with it. You need to launder it -- put it into something legitimate and, most importantly, get something back out of it that looks legitimate enough to pass casual scrutiny -- for this service anything and anyone, legit or not, is going to take a cut (or "fee"). It's the cost of doing criminal business. And if you're in a criminal enterprise and you even talk to the other members of the ent. about how you're going to move your money you ain't gonna be in the enterprise very long. That type of dirt you do by your lonesome or you die.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    Needing to pay fees is different from not "giv[ing] a damn about the fees." I understand I have to pay a broker's fee when I buy and sell stock. That doesn't mean I'm indifferent to its level. Using Bitcoin to surreptitiously move large quantities of funds is almost always riskier and more expensive than traditional money-laundering techniques.
    - stryk 8y ago
      And how may I ask did you come to this conclusion? Have you ever actually laundered dirty money?
      - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
        > Have you ever actually laundered dirty money? No. My knowledge comes from anti-money laundering training. Depending on how fast one needs to move, money laundering fees go from 5% to 30%. Bitcoin is cheaper than that per se. But include the costs of anonymising and cleanly cash out, and you're just adding cost and risk over a wire transfer between fronts.
        stryk 8y ago
        No man, there's so much more exposure that way. And remember, this is a criminal enterprise. Those people who run your fronts could just as easily rob/kill you and take it for themselves, and given the chance they will. With bitcoins you can 1) do it yourself, no middlemen other than the bitcoin processor who doesn't give a flying right-hand fuck where the money comes from, and 2) do it far, far, far quicker than traditional methods. A thief isn't going to give a damn about fees, I'm tellin ya, in the end it's all profit for them. Get in, get it, and get out. If I hit a lick for $100k, flip it in a couple days while interacting with not another soul but lose 30k to fees, I'm still up 70k that's a good lick. and if I paid the 30k to not have to deal with ANYONE face-to-face (least of all other criminals) that's worth it in spades because I'm not spending MY 30k, I'm spending YOUR 30k.

jonhendry18 8y ago

"No crypto in it's current state is liquid enough for any serious moving of money" It's more liquid than real estate, which is widely used for money laundering.

sgt101 8y ago
I don't think so. If someone put 5K BTC up for sale on one day the price of the whole market would be disrupted, but similar sales happen in London and New York every day and the market seems unbothered.
- mike10010100 8y ago
  > If someone put 5K BTC up for sale on one day the price of the whole market would be disrupted https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/15/researchers-finds-that-one-person-likely-drove-bitcoin-from-150-to-1000/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/15/researchers-finds-that-one...