7 ms·

Agreed. Similarly, when I learned of the Indian technique of stepwall evaporative cooling, I was shocked that something so misleadingly simple could have been d

Agreed. Similarly, when I learned of the Indian technique of stepwall evaporative cooling, I was shocked that something so misleadingly simple could have been derived so long ago. https://www.treehugger.com/green-architecture/architect-uses-ancient-techniques-cool-modern-building-india.html https://www.treehugger.com/green-architecture/architect-uses... But, of course people back then weren't any less intelligent, they simply didn't have as much knowledge, probably due to the inefficiency of transmitting knowledge from one generation to another without the use of digital technologies. If anyone is at all interested in ancient (or even just modestly old) cooling techniques, 99 Percent Invisible had a particularly great episode in "Thermal Delight" https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/thermal-delight/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/thermal-delight/

lostlogin 8y ago
> inefficiency of transmitting knowledge from one generation to another without the use of digital technologies. Digital technologies haven’t transmitted information between very many generations at all. I don’t think this was the problem.
- WalterBright 8y ago
  Lack of writing was the problem (and paper). The most effective innovation was the printing press - what followed was an explosion of technological progress.
  - singularity2001 8y ago
    printing press was an improvement, not the invention of information transfer. They were doing just fine with papyrus(paper), leather(letters), tablets, and bark
    - cornholio 8y ago
      The movable type and printing press combination was introduced by Gutenberg in 1455 and in a single generation spread to hundreds of European cities. By 1500, there were 20 million printed books in Europe for a population of 70 million, mostly illiterate. It was a cultural revolution, in half a century the price of books dropped by an order or two of magnitude. They were transformed from a luxury item only the wealthiest could afford to something any middle class, literate citizen could own.
      - xaedes 8y ago
        Cunei form also had moveable type. Afaik most was still handwritten though. There are hundreds of thousands yet untranslated cunei form tablets in museums and maybe many more that never made it through time. From "Moveable type" wikipedia: "Seals and stamps may have been precursors to movable type. The uneven spacing of the impressions on brick stamps found in the Mesopotamian cities of Uruk and Larsa, dating from the 2nd millennium BC, has been conjectured by some archaeologists as evidence that the stamps were made using movable type." Just to provide some perspective
      - vram22 8y ago
        Interestingly, in Korea, they had movable metal type some decades earlier (in 1377). Check out the image and text about Jikji, "from Korea, the earliest known book printed with movable metal type, 1377" (from the Wikipedia article about Printing) at the bottom of this blog post: https://jugad2.blogspot.com/2014/10/print-selected-text-pages-to-pdf-with.html https://jugad2.blogspot.com/2014/10/print-selected-text-page...
    - WalterBright 8y ago
      It was one heluva invention. > They were doing just fine with ... Writing books by hand, letter by letter? Not really. I sometimes wonder what the romans could have achieved if they had a printing press.
      - lostlogin 8y ago
        To mangle a masterpiece: What have the Romans ever done for us?
        WalterBright 8y ago
        They invented modern roads.
oldcynic 8y ago
It's more shocking to realise how much we've needlessly thrown away. There's a vast selection of old architectural techniques for controlling environment that we've thrown away, preferring to bolt an AC unit to a hugely inefficient building instead. Many are free, relying on natural convection and material properties etc, others rely on movement of water like the Yakchal. Some, but far from all, are coming back to be seen in things like passive houses, but that remains an extremely small niche.
- mmjaa 8y ago
  A lot of these forgotten technologies are revived in various contemporary green movements - such as Permaculture and Earthship, for example. Permaculture attempts to learn as much forgotten technology as possible and re-apply it in a modern context for agriculture - the Earthship movement, same but for architecture. I think the biggest barrier to these forgotten technologies is the stigma around the cultures they attract, as well as the hubris around the technologies they supplant. Its very difficult to get someone who has grown up with the Monsanto mindset to consider Permaculture concepts as a viable means of agricultural production - likewise with Earthship. Stigma and Hubris seem to be the number one causes of lost technology, imho. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthship
  - oldcynic 8y ago
    A very good point. After reading the linked 99% piece linked above I'd perhaps extend that to "stigma, hubris and marketing". It's not very "modern" either is it? Hmm. I wonder if that's why we got the post-war modernism school of architecture. :) Someone used to monoculture and pesticides presumes dishonesty when hearing about the productivity of permaculture - or even traditional mixed farming as it's comparing mono yields against dozens of crops and livestock at the same time from the acre. It's a disappointment realising, after visiting a selection of old buildings, just how much nicer the old solutions are for humans to inhabit. You get none of the harsh drying that you do with heating and AC, but you do get small temperature variations and air movement that make it far better. I haven't come across Earthship before, surprisingly, so thanks for that.

lostlogin 8y ago

> inefficiency of transmitting knowledge from one generation to another without the use of digital technologies. Digital technologies haven’t transmitted information between very many generations at all. I don’t think this was the problem.

WalterBright 8y ago
Lack of writing was the problem (and paper). The most effective innovation was the printing press - what followed was an explosion of technological progress.
- singularity2001 8y ago
  printing press was an improvement, not the invention of information transfer. They were doing just fine with papyrus(paper), leather(letters), tablets, and bark
  - cornholio 8y ago
    The movable type and printing press combination was introduced by Gutenberg in 1455 and in a single generation spread to hundreds of European cities. By 1500, there were 20 million printed books in Europe for a population of 70 million, mostly illiterate. It was a cultural revolution, in half a century the price of books dropped by an order or two of magnitude. They were transformed from a luxury item only the wealthiest could afford to something any middle class, literate citizen could own.
    - xaedes 8y ago
      Cunei form also had moveable type. Afaik most was still handwritten though. There are hundreds of thousands yet untranslated cunei form tablets in museums and maybe many more that never made it through time. From "Moveable type" wikipedia: "Seals and stamps may have been precursors to movable type. The uneven spacing of the impressions on brick stamps found in the Mesopotamian cities of Uruk and Larsa, dating from the 2nd millennium BC, has been conjectured by some archaeologists as evidence that the stamps were made using movable type." Just to provide some perspective
    - vram22 8y ago
      Interestingly, in Korea, they had movable metal type some decades earlier (in 1377). Check out the image and text about Jikji, "from Korea, the earliest known book printed with movable metal type, 1377" (from the Wikipedia article about Printing) at the bottom of this blog post: https://jugad2.blogspot.com/2014/10/print-selected-text-pages-to-pdf-with.html https://jugad2.blogspot.com/2014/10/print-selected-text-page...
  - WalterBright 8y ago
    It was one heluva invention. > They were doing just fine with ... Writing books by hand, letter by letter? Not really. I sometimes wonder what the romans could have achieved if they had a printing press.
    - lostlogin 8y ago
      To mangle a masterpiece: What have the Romans ever done for us?
      - WalterBright 8y ago
        They invented modern roads.

oldcynic 8y ago

It's more shocking to realise how much we've needlessly thrown away. There's a vast selection of old architectural techniques for controlling environment that we've thrown away, preferring to bolt an AC unit to a hugely inefficient building instead. Many are free, relying on natural convection and material properties etc, others rely on movement of water like the Yakchal. Some, but far from all, are coming back to be seen in things like passive houses, but that remains an extremely small niche.

mmjaa 8y ago
A lot of these forgotten technologies are revived in various contemporary green movements - such as Permaculture and Earthship, for example. Permaculture attempts to learn as much forgotten technology as possible and re-apply it in a modern context for agriculture - the Earthship movement, same but for architecture. I think the biggest barrier to these forgotten technologies is the stigma around the cultures they attract, as well as the hubris around the technologies they supplant. Its very difficult to get someone who has grown up with the Monsanto mindset to consider Permaculture concepts as a viable means of agricultural production - likewise with Earthship. Stigma and Hubris seem to be the number one causes of lost technology, imho. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthship
- oldcynic 8y ago
  A very good point. After reading the linked 99% piece linked above I'd perhaps extend that to "stigma, hubris and marketing". It's not very "modern" either is it? Hmm. I wonder if that's why we got the post-war modernism school of architecture. :) Someone used to monoculture and pesticides presumes dishonesty when hearing about the productivity of permaculture - or even traditional mixed farming as it's comparing mono yields against dozens of crops and livestock at the same time from the acre. It's a disappointment realising, after visiting a selection of old buildings, just how much nicer the old solutions are for humans to inhabit. You get none of the harsh drying that you do with heating and AC, but you do get small temperature variations and air movement that make it far better. I haven't come across Earthship before, surprisingly, so thanks for that.