4 ms·

It invites or raises the question rather than begs it, but your point is understood. You mention Tim Wu -- his book 'The Master Switch' focuses on the history

by Jedd 8y ago

It invites or raises the question rather than begs it, but your point is understood. You mention Tim Wu -- his book 'The Master Switch' focuses on the history of technologies as a cycle of invention --> egalitarian use & access --> centralised control and ownership by the elite. My feeling is that things like the trends away from net neutrality globally, and towards greater government surveillance / suppression of encryption, and corporate interest in encouraging consumption via technology rather than (as per your example) 'creative work', are fulfilling that prediction in both obvious and subtle ways.

nicklaf 8y ago
It invites or raises the question rather than begs it, but your point is understood. Hmm. I admit it's tenuously implied, but my thinking was that it does beg the question! Because what we're talking about is the ostensible resolution of Ted Nelson's dilemma of wanting 'generalized paper', but then observing that what people actually use it for in practice might lead us to question some of his original assumptions about what people need computers for after all. But OK, maybe this isn't quite correct usage of the term. Thanks a lot for pointing that out about The Master Switch, which I should probably read.
- redwood 8y ago
  I'm impressed that you're both familiar with the rhetoric roots of the term
noblethrasher 8y ago
> It invites or raises the question rather than begs it, but your point is understood. By my reading, 'nicklaf used the phrase in the technically correct way. But, as a recovering philosophy major, I'll just point out that the phrase "begging the question" is just a bad 16th century English translation of the Latin phrase "petitio principii" that literally meant "requesting a postulate", and which itself was a medieval translation of the original Greek phrases "τὸ ἐν ἀρχῇ αἰτεῖσθαι" and "τὸ ἐν ἀρχῇ λαμβάνειν", which meant, respectively, "asking the original point" and "assuming the original point."[1] We say that the English translation is "bad" because the translators were jumping through hoops to avoid using the fancy Latin in favor of the vernacular (or vulgar) English. I caucus with the folks that say that we should just use the Latin phrase, "petition principii", as we do with other well-known fallacies. [1] http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2290 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2290
Obi_Juan_Kenobi 8y ago
> trends away from net neutrality globally, and towards greater government surveillance / suppression of encryption ... Is that a trend? It strikes me that these are ongoing points of conflict, at least in particular with encryption. Whether it's illegal numbers, Wassenaar, or the UK sitting on a version of RSA for over two decades, keeping it top secret. Or the enduring controversy over TOR, a tool of government surveillance. I think the only thing that's changed is the degree and immediacy with which policy related to these issues affects the public. More generally, for all the 'consumption' Facebook and Instagram, you also have Arduino and 'maker' culture, Soundcloud rappers, Youtubers of all stripes (from the old dude in his garage machine shop, inexplicably addressing an audience of tens of thousands a few times a week, to the flavor of the month pop-drama garbage), an endless list of self-directed learning resources, Wikis, etc. etc. I certainly see the merit in the 'Wu' observation, but it strikes me how robust and resistance the internet is -- has been -- to this erosion.
- Jedd 8y ago
  > Is that a trend? It feels like it - but I don't have a scatter plot that I can provide to prove it. Snowden revelations felt like the start of the wave of awareness, at least amongst those with even just a modicum of interest and savvy. In AU we tend to follow the trends (no matter how bad they are) set by other regimes. Two recent examples spring to mind. In 2017 a fairly horrific data retention law was passed that requires all ISP's to record and retain (for two years) all user meta data. In 2016 the AU Bureau of Statistics ran the latest census - there was a significant policy change regarding the long-term retention of these PII data, cynically announced a few days before Christmas the previous year (a profoundly quiet time in AU as most take their summer holidays around then). Watching news from the UK and the US - but less so the EU, at least - is discouraging in terms of the continued eroding of privacy and freedom. Separating large institutions such as FB / Google / Microsoft from nation states misses the point - their interests more often align with each other than with their citizenry / customers(products). > More generally, for all the 'consumption' Facebook and Instagram, you also have Arduino and 'maker' culture ... I love the arduino, but I don't think it's going to save us from the activities of bad actors. > I certainly see the merit in the 'Wu' observation, but it strikes me how robust and resistance the internet is -- has been -- to this erosion. Read the book. There's a trend of people thinking 'this is how it will always be' discovering later, too late, that that's not the case.

by Jedd 8y ago

nicklaf 8y ago

It invites or raises the question rather than begs it, but your point is understood. Hmm. I admit it's tenuously implied, but my thinking was that it does beg the question! Because what we're talking about is the ostensible resolution of Ted Nelson's dilemma of wanting 'generalized paper', but then observing that what people actually use it for in practice might lead us to question some of his original assumptions about what people need computers for after all. But OK, maybe this isn't quite correct usage of the term. Thanks a lot for pointing that out about The Master Switch, which I should probably read.

redwood 8y ago
I'm impressed that you're both familiar with the rhetoric roots of the term

noblethrasher 8y ago

> It invites or raises the question rather than begs it, but your point is understood. By my reading, 'nicklaf used the phrase in the technically correct way. But, as a recovering philosophy major, I'll just point out that the phrase "begging the question" is just a bad 16th century English translation of the Latin phrase "petitio principii" that literally meant "requesting a postulate", and which itself was a medieval translation of the original Greek phrases "τὸ ἐν ἀρχῇ αἰτεῖσθαι" and "τὸ ἐν ἀρχῇ λαμβάνειν", which meant, respectively, "asking the original point" and "assuming the original point."[1] We say that the English translation is "bad" because the translators were jumping through hoops to avoid using the fancy Latin in favor of the vernacular (or vulgar) English. I caucus with the folks that say that we should just use the Latin phrase, "petition principii", as we do with other well-known fallacies. [1] http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2290 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2290

Obi_Juan_Kenobi 8y ago

> trends away from net neutrality globally, and towards greater government surveillance / suppression of encryption ... Is that a trend? It strikes me that these are ongoing points of conflict, at least in particular with encryption. Whether it's illegal numbers, Wassenaar, or the UK sitting on a version of RSA for over two decades, keeping it top secret. Or the enduring controversy over TOR, a tool of government surveillance. I think the only thing that's changed is the degree and immediacy with which policy related to these issues affects the public. More generally, for all the 'consumption' Facebook and Instagram, you also have Arduino and 'maker' culture, Soundcloud rappers, Youtubers of all stripes (from the old dude in his garage machine shop, inexplicably addressing an audience of tens of thousands a few times a week, to the flavor of the month pop-drama garbage), an endless list of self-directed learning resources, Wikis, etc. etc. I certainly see the merit in the 'Wu' observation, but it strikes me how robust and resistance the internet is -- has been -- to this erosion.

Jedd 8y ago
> Is that a trend? It feels like it - but I don't have a scatter plot that I can provide to prove it. Snowden revelations felt like the start of the wave of awareness, at least amongst those with even just a modicum of interest and savvy. In AU we tend to follow the trends (no matter how bad they are) set by other regimes. Two recent examples spring to mind. In 2017 a fairly horrific data retention law was passed that requires all ISP's to record and retain (for two years) all user meta data. In 2016 the AU Bureau of Statistics ran the latest census - there was a significant policy change regarding the long-term retention of these PII data, cynically announced a few days before Christmas the previous year (a profoundly quiet time in AU as most take their summer holidays around then). Watching news from the UK and the US - but less so the EU, at least - is discouraging in terms of the continued eroding of privacy and freedom. Separating large institutions such as FB / Google / Microsoft from nation states misses the point - their interests more often align with each other than with their citizenry / customers(products). > More generally, for all the 'consumption' Facebook and Instagram, you also have Arduino and 'maker' culture ... I love the arduino, but I don't think it's going to save us from the activities of bad actors. > I certainly see the merit in the 'Wu' observation, but it strikes me how robust and resistance the internet is -- has been -- to this erosion. Read the book. There's a trend of people thinking 'this is how it will always be' discovering later, too late, that that's not the case.