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Have you tried getting adequate and affordable child care? Fortunately our kids don't need it any more. It hugely restricts available options. Either from hour

Have you tried getting adequate and affordable child care? Fortunately our kids don't need it any more. It hugely restricts available options. Either from hours available, lengthy waiting lists or simply finding that after paying childcare work is no longer making economic sense.

repolfx 8y ago
Hmm, seems like there may have been a reason for the old traditions after all. The Economist's point is weird/wrong for another reason. Immigrant women have babies too. They can't be both looking after their own children and looking after other people's simultaneously. Expensive childcare doesn't seem like the kind of problem you can permanently fix by just allowing tons of immigration from third world countries.
- friedman23 8y ago
  >They can't be both looking after their own children and looking after other people's simultaneously Why not?
- eloff 8y ago
  I've typically seen in the developing world that the nanny looks after her kids as well, but families tend to prefer childless nannies for obvious reasons. Very often in such cases the host family will help with some of the child related expenses of the nanny. Much like some kind of communal family.
- rock_hard 8y ago
  I guess you’d be surprised by reality buddy, because that’s exactly how my nanny did it when I grew up...she took care of her two kids and me at the same time...it’s like people who have three kids, totally possible and being done everywhere.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - repolfx 8y ago
    Sure, but we're not talking about an additional place here or there. When people say childcare they tend to mean professional daycare, no? That's very much people bottlenecked. But if immigrants are more fertile than the locals, which they usually are at least for a while, then if the Economist was right about immigrants being well employed in construction jobs and hairdressers such, you'd expect an sudden influx to put more pressure on childcare, not less.
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > When people say childcare they tend to mean professional daycare There is a professional daycare on my block. I see the lady who runs it at our corner coffee shop from time to time. Her kids were in there with everyone else’s. (This was a point she marketed.) She’s an immigrant from Kenya.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - dvdhnt 8y ago
      > When people say childcare they tend to mean professional daycare, no? Negative. As a child, of a poor family, my childcare was some combination of aunts, cousins, and family friends. As a parent, while in the military, we often used professional childcare in the form of a daycare. Now, as an engineering, our nanny watches our children along with her own children. So, personally, childcare has rarely referred to professional childcare.
    - kbenson 8y ago
      > When people say childcare they tend to mean professional daycare, no? No, not necessarily. It's more about availability. Even if you do assume it's "professional" childcare in some manner, it's one of the easiest small businesses to start. The regulations are strict, but the requirements are cheap beyond location and food. My wife ran a daycare out of our house for a short period when our children were small, as it was more cost effective than having two children in daycare elsewhere.
    - 8y ago
  - notdeniro 8y ago
    So you support constant work without maternity leave? I mean you know immigrants go through pregnancy and recovery, right? Interesting to see how the rights people usually fight for become unimportant when it benefits you. I hope your nanny got at least minimum wage too.
- brandonmenc 8y ago
  > They can't be both looking after their own children and looking after other people's simultaneously. The lady who lives and babysits across the street from my sister does exactly this.
toomuchtodo 8y ago
Isn’t this a good thing though? That elderly care and childcare is as valuable as otherwise “lucrative work”? Or perhaps what this stage of capitalism has defined as lucrative work isn’t so lucrative.
onetimemanytime 8y ago
>>Have you tried getting adequate and affordable child care? Nigerian or Mexican immigrants doing that in USA would face the same high rent and expenses as US workers. They might charge a little less and that's it.
- briandear 8y ago
  That is exactly it. The fixed costs are identical.
burfog 8y ago
Proper child care means a high level of interaction with well-educated people who speak crisply perfect English. For the child, this is a time when they are developing language and cultural habits that will have a lifelong impact, ultimately impacting the quality of their employment and spouse. Immigrants will not provide that. It's hard enough finding non-immigrants who can provide it.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  Many children grow up fine in families where both parents are immigrants and cannot speak English well. The key point is "a high level of interaction" rather than the competency of the language they speak.
- ryen 8y ago
  >with well-educated people who speak crisply perfect English Source? Personally, i'd rather my kid have an immigrant baby sitter speaking and teaching my child in their native language. Plenty of studies around long term intelligence of children learning second languages early on....
  - dvtv75 8y ago
    > Plenty of studies around long term intelligence of children learning second languages early on.... This in itself may be a myth: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/debate-rages-over-whether-speaking-a-second-language-improves-cognition/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/debate-rages-over...
- openasocket 8y ago
  Why do they need to speak perfect English? Are you worried the child will develop an accent or something? Unless the child is spending 24 hours a day with this person for months I don't think that's going to happen. And what "cultural habits" are you worried the child is going to pick up or not pick up from spending time with an immigrant?
- vidarh 8y ago
  Nonsense. I speak English with a strong Scandinavian accept. My ex speaks RP ("posh" English). Our child minder speaks with a very noticeable South London accent. Want to guess who he's taken after? His friends. He has a much more neutral accent than either one of us. That's not to say your interaction or the childminders will have no impact, but if any single person has such a substantial impact on the way your child speaks, then you should be more concerned about their isolation than the English skill of one specific person they're interacting with.

repolfx 8y ago

Hmm, seems like there may have been a reason for the old traditions after all. The Economist's point is weird/wrong for another reason. Immigrant women have babies too. They can't be both looking after their own children and looking after other people's simultaneously. Expensive childcare doesn't seem like the kind of problem you can permanently fix by just allowing tons of immigration from third world countries.

friedman23 8y ago
>They can't be both looking after their own children and looking after other people's simultaneously Why not?
eloff 8y ago
I've typically seen in the developing world that the nanny looks after her kids as well, but families tend to prefer childless nannies for obvious reasons. Very often in such cases the host family will help with some of the child related expenses of the nanny. Much like some kind of communal family.
rock_hard 8y ago
I guess you’d be surprised by reality buddy, because that’s exactly how my nanny did it when I grew up...she took care of her two kids and me at the same time...it’s like people who have three kids, totally possible and being done everywhere.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- repolfx 8y ago
  Sure, but we're not talking about an additional place here or there. When people say childcare they tend to mean professional daycare, no? That's very much people bottlenecked. But if immigrants are more fertile than the locals, which they usually are at least for a while, then if the Economist was right about immigrants being well employed in construction jobs and hairdressers such, you'd expect an sudden influx to put more pressure on childcare, not less.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > When people say childcare they tend to mean professional daycare There is a professional daycare on my block. I see the lady who runs it at our corner coffee shop from time to time. Her kids were in there with everyone else’s. (This was a point she marketed.) She’s an immigrant from Kenya.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - dvdhnt 8y ago
    > When people say childcare they tend to mean professional daycare, no? Negative. As a child, of a poor family, my childcare was some combination of aunts, cousins, and family friends. As a parent, while in the military, we often used professional childcare in the form of a daycare. Now, as an engineering, our nanny watches our children along with her own children. So, personally, childcare has rarely referred to professional childcare.
  - kbenson 8y ago
    > When people say childcare they tend to mean professional daycare, no? No, not necessarily. It's more about availability. Even if you do assume it's "professional" childcare in some manner, it's one of the easiest small businesses to start. The regulations are strict, but the requirements are cheap beyond location and food. My wife ran a daycare out of our house for a short period when our children were small, as it was more cost effective than having two children in daycare elsewhere.
  - 8y ago
- notdeniro 8y ago
  So you support constant work without maternity leave? I mean you know immigrants go through pregnancy and recovery, right? Interesting to see how the rights people usually fight for become unimportant when it benefits you. I hope your nanny got at least minimum wage too.
brandonmenc 8y ago
> They can't be both looking after their own children and looking after other people's simultaneously. The lady who lives and babysits across the street from my sister does exactly this.

toomuchtodo 8y ago

Isn’t this a good thing though? That elderly care and childcare is as valuable as otherwise “lucrative work”? Or perhaps what this stage of capitalism has defined as lucrative work isn’t so lucrative.

onetimemanytime 8y ago

>>Have you tried getting adequate and affordable child care? Nigerian or Mexican immigrants doing that in USA would face the same high rent and expenses as US workers. They might charge a little less and that's it.

briandear 8y ago
That is exactly it. The fixed costs are identical.

burfog 8y ago

Proper child care means a high level of interaction with well-educated people who speak crisply perfect English. For the child, this is a time when they are developing language and cultural habits that will have a lifelong impact, ultimately impacting the quality of their employment and spouse. Immigrants will not provide that. It's hard enough finding non-immigrants who can provide it.

saagarjha 8y ago
Many children grow up fine in families where both parents are immigrants and cannot speak English well. The key point is "a high level of interaction" rather than the competency of the language they speak.
ryen 8y ago
>with well-educated people who speak crisply perfect English Source? Personally, i'd rather my kid have an immigrant baby sitter speaking and teaching my child in their native language. Plenty of studies around long term intelligence of children learning second languages early on....
- dvtv75 8y ago
  > Plenty of studies around long term intelligence of children learning second languages early on.... This in itself may be a myth: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/debate-rages-over-whether-speaking-a-second-language-improves-cognition/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/debate-rages-over...
openasocket 8y ago
Why do they need to speak perfect English? Are you worried the child will develop an accent or something? Unless the child is spending 24 hours a day with this person for months I don't think that's going to happen. And what "cultural habits" are you worried the child is going to pick up or not pick up from spending time with an immigrant?
vidarh 8y ago
Nonsense. I speak English with a strong Scandinavian accept. My ex speaks RP ("posh" English). Our child minder speaks with a very noticeable South London accent. Want to guess who he's taken after? His friends. He has a much more neutral accent than either one of us. That's not to say your interaction or the childminders will have no impact, but if any single person has such a substantial impact on the way your child speaks, then you should be more concerned about their isolation than the English skill of one specific person they're interacting with.