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Democracy and libertarianism are incompatible. This is because democracy is a form of statism. Consistent libertarians understand this and are working to weaken

Democracy and libertarianism are incompatible. This is because democracy is a form of statism. Consistent libertarians understand this and are working to weaken government monopolies as institutions, subvert them, or make them irrelevant outright.

_bxg1 8y ago
Well then I'm nearly as afraid of libertarians as I am of fascists.
- CryptoPunk 8y ago
  Not that I'm an anarcho-libertarian, but the ideas he's advancing don't seem very scary when you remember that you can reformulate institutions very similar to governments in a world without states. They wouldn't technically be government institutions, because everyone subject to their rules would be a contracting party that consented to the arrangement, but these institutions could have many of the same powers that governments have now, including the power to tax, regulate trade, and provision goods. Anyway, a state-free world is neither plausible nor seen as desireable by the majority kf libertarians, so no point in worrying too much about it.
  - perl4ever 8y ago
    It seems to me that the government provides a "Schelling point"[1] that we can't do away with for many purposes, particularly trust. We can't just have many private regulators or certifiers, because then everyone has an equally difficult problem of determining which one to trust, and no benefit to doing so, since they are stuck with what the market decides. Trust requires information, (not data) and information is a public good. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_point_(game_theory) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_point_(game_theory)
    - ruskerdax 8y ago
      Perhaps the fact that the government, which both maintains its own monopolies and props up other regulators and certifiers through threats of violence, distorts this market. It's kinda hard to trust someone that's either sticking a gun to your head, or got to the position they did by having someone else do it for them.
      - perl4ever 8y ago
        Monopoly and coercion are an essential part of regulation. You need regulation for the things you can't verify. I can only repeat myself in saying information (as opposed to data) is a public good and systematically undermining its production by government is bound to be catastrophic. Every criticism of how government works should lead us to say "let's fix government" not "let's get rid of government". Libertarians are like fish who want to abolish water because it seems to impede swimming...or a brain that wants to eliminate the heart because of its monopoly on pumping blood.
        ruskerdax 8y ago
        lmao
        CryptoPunk 8y ago
        >>You need regulation for the things you can't verify. What do you mean by this? Everything not understood should be prohibited, with exceptions provided by a centralized gatekeeper? This goes against 500 years of Englightment Thought. It's total subservience to Big Brother, and total naivety about what that kind of centralization of power results in. >>Libertarians are like fish who want to abolish water because it seems to impede swimming... With the exception of a tiny minority of libertarians who are anarchists, the vast majority of libertarians do not want to abolish government. Yet opponents of libertarianism regularly attack this strawman as if it addresses libertarian arguments. There is a time and a place for the government, but it is not in restricting voluntary interactions between consenting adults.
        ruskerdax 8y ago
- ruskerdax 8y ago
  Good.
TheCoelacanth 8y ago
Consistent libertarians realize that all powerful institutions are incompatible with liberty, not just governments.

_bxg1 8y ago

Well then I'm nearly as afraid of libertarians as I am of fascists.

CryptoPunk 8y ago
Not that I'm an anarcho-libertarian, but the ideas he's advancing don't seem very scary when you remember that you can reformulate institutions very similar to governments in a world without states. They wouldn't technically be government institutions, because everyone subject to their rules would be a contracting party that consented to the arrangement, but these institutions could have many of the same powers that governments have now, including the power to tax, regulate trade, and provision goods. Anyway, a state-free world is neither plausible nor seen as desireable by the majority kf libertarians, so no point in worrying too much about it.
- perl4ever 8y ago
  It seems to me that the government provides a "Schelling point"[1] that we can't do away with for many purposes, particularly trust. We can't just have many private regulators or certifiers, because then everyone has an equally difficult problem of determining which one to trust, and no benefit to doing so, since they are stuck with what the market decides. Trust requires information, (not data) and information is a public good. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_point_(game_theory) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_point_(game_theory)
  - ruskerdax 8y ago
    Perhaps the fact that the government, which both maintains its own monopolies and props up other regulators and certifiers through threats of violence, distorts this market. It's kinda hard to trust someone that's either sticking a gun to your head, or got to the position they did by having someone else do it for them.
    - perl4ever 8y ago
      Monopoly and coercion are an essential part of regulation. You need regulation for the things you can't verify. I can only repeat myself in saying information (as opposed to data) is a public good and systematically undermining its production by government is bound to be catastrophic. Every criticism of how government works should lead us to say "let's fix government" not "let's get rid of government". Libertarians are like fish who want to abolish water because it seems to impede swimming...or a brain that wants to eliminate the heart because of its monopoly on pumping blood.
      - ruskerdax 8y ago
        lmao
      - CryptoPunk 8y ago
        >>You need regulation for the things you can't verify. What do you mean by this? Everything not understood should be prohibited, with exceptions provided by a centralized gatekeeper? This goes against 500 years of Englightment Thought. It's total subservience to Big Brother, and total naivety about what that kind of centralization of power results in. >>Libertarians are like fish who want to abolish water because it seems to impede swimming... With the exception of a tiny minority of libertarians who are anarchists, the vast majority of libertarians do not want to abolish government. Yet opponents of libertarianism regularly attack this strawman as if it addresses libertarian arguments. There is a time and a place for the government, but it is not in restricting voluntary interactions between consenting adults.
        ruskerdax 8y ago
ruskerdax 8y ago
Good.

TheCoelacanth 8y ago

Consistent libertarians realize that all powerful institutions are incompatible with liberty, not just governments.