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GDP growth as a measure of economic health of a society is a bad rule. Here's a better rule: Completely disregard any claim about economic health, sustainabili

GDP growth as a measure of economic health of a society is a bad rule. Here's a better rule: Completely disregard any claim about economic health, sustainability, well-being etc. if it's based on GDP. GDP is a measure that deserves no respect and the mere use of it has caused a lot of harm to the world.

jopsen 8y ago
Analysis with numbers is only an oppinion. Sure, GDP isn't a perfect measure, but if grows odds it's a good thing.
- quadrangle 8y ago
  Numbers aren't the inherent problem, the problem is which numbers you use. GDP is among the worst choices for which numbers to evaluate. GDP growing is NOT a good thing per se. It does a mix of capturing how much productivity is being commercialized (if we all paid our neighbors to do our household chores, GDP would double or something instantly with zero productivity gain), how much pay is going to non-productive or even counterproductive work (see the phenomenon of bullshit jobs^1) and ignoring externalities (growth in fossil fuel extraction and consumption, for example is overall negative for society). It's not useful to even assume that GDP growth correlates with positive economic status in measures we actually want (i.e. measurements of overall long-term prosperity) ^1: https://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/ https://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs
  - jopsen 8y ago
    Sure there are degenerate aspects captured by GDP. But at a macro level those seem unlikely to dominate the development. If GDP is increased by disposing nuclear waste in international waters that's obviously bad. But generally speaking degenerate trends like that don't dominate economic development. I hope :)
    - quadrangle 8y ago
      Better perspective: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/04/five-measures-of-growth-that-are-better-than-gdp https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/04/five-measures-of-grow... (note that World Economic Forum is far from some radical hippy organization) Another perspective: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/12/doughnut-growth-economics-book-economic-model https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/12/doughn... There are simple places where growth necessarily means we're beyond some limit and causing more problems the more we grow. Growth is not the goal, the goal is well-being and health. Growth is only the goal when we're under the level that maximizes well-being and have room to grow before problems start getting exacerbated.

jopsen 8y ago

Analysis with numbers is only an oppinion. Sure, GDP isn't a perfect measure, but if grows odds it's a good thing.

quadrangle 8y ago
Numbers aren't the inherent problem, the problem is which numbers you use. GDP is among the worst choices for which numbers to evaluate. GDP growing is NOT a good thing per se. It does a mix of capturing how much productivity is being commercialized (if we all paid our neighbors to do our household chores, GDP would double or something instantly with zero productivity gain), how much pay is going to non-productive or even counterproductive work (see the phenomenon of bullshit jobs^1) and ignoring externalities (growth in fossil fuel extraction and consumption, for example is overall negative for society). It's not useful to even assume that GDP growth correlates with positive economic status in measures we actually want (i.e. measurements of overall long-term prosperity) ^1: https://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/ https://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs
- jopsen 8y ago
  Sure there are degenerate aspects captured by GDP. But at a macro level those seem unlikely to dominate the development. If GDP is increased by disposing nuclear waste in international waters that's obviously bad. But generally speaking degenerate trends like that don't dominate economic development. I hope :)
  - quadrangle 8y ago
    Better perspective: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/04/five-measures-of-growth-that-are-better-than-gdp https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/04/five-measures-of-grow... (note that World Economic Forum is far from some radical hippy organization) Another perspective: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/12/doughnut-growth-economics-book-economic-model https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/12/doughn... There are simple places where growth necessarily means we're beyond some limit and causing more problems the more we grow. Growth is not the goal, the goal is well-being and health. Growth is only the goal when we're under the level that maximizes well-being and have room to grow before problems start getting exacerbated.