7 ms·

Sometime computer technician here. I've replaced a few keyboards on some of the earlier affected models. This is tedious, time-consuming repair with a lot of sm

Sometime computer technician here. I've replaced a few keyboards on some of the earlier affected models. This is tedious, time-consuming repair with a lot of small screws. Here's a photo of the screws with a grain of uncooked rice for scale: https://imgur.com/gallery/En32MFP https://imgur.com/gallery/En32MFP (image safe for work) For most of my repairs, it worked out more cost-effective to purchase a new MacBook top with keyboard attached, and just transfer the logic board, than spend time unscrewing, fitting the keyboard and refitting the masses of tiny screws. On labour/consultancy alone, I suspect this will be an expensive per-case recall.

gowld 8y ago
What's a source of MacBook tops? Why do you transfer the logic board? Do you need to obtain a new logic board (as part of the "top", and trash the original machine's logic board? ) As I recall (no pun intended) from past recalls, a logic board change is $300 itself (but that includes some redundancy if you are already doing a service call to change another part of the device)
- Mister_Snuggles 8y ago
  On the new MacBook Pros, and probably the MacBooks too, the chips that make up the SSD are soldered onto the logic board. The logic board change swap is required for the customer to keep their data.
  - abrowne 8y ago
    The SSD is part of the motherboard for MBPs with Touch Bar, both 15- and 13-inch, and MacBooks. The 13-inch without the Touch Bar, internally a very different design, does still have a separate SSD.
    - _wmd 8y ago
      This is very welcome news to me, and I've seen it nowhere else. Do you have a canonical source for it? How about the RAM?
      - jdietrich 8y ago
        The SSD is socketed but proprietary, using a non-standard connector and an Apple-designed controller chip. The RAM is soldered. https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Function+Keys+Late+2016+Teardown/72415#s144817 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Function...
      - abrowne 8y ago
        My canonical source is my eyes, having opened up all three types ;-) But the sibling comment has pictures and is right about the ram.
- p1mrx 8y ago
  I'd assume "transfer the logic board" means that the user's original board moves to the new case. Sort of like how a head transplant is equivalent to a body transplant.
  - petecooper 8y ago
    Correct.
codetrotter 8y ago
> image safe for work Is there any reason to expect an image of some screws and a grain of rice not to be safe for work? Genuinely curious. Like, what else would possibly be in that image? I think in general we expect all images on HN to be safe for work. And if they are not then people warn about that. Were there any NSFW images that you came across when searching for this one?
- jacobush 8y ago
  You get the sweats easily, I usually undress completely while unscrewing MacBook keyboards. It's a dirty business.
- donarb 8y ago
  imgur.com hosts quite a few NSFW images. A company's firewall might be blocking images coming from there.
  - petecooper 8y ago
    ^^ This. I've had two instances where I'd used Imgur for image grabbing of screenshots and they turned out to be on the same page as NSFW images, which was out of my control. That photo I took with the screws was ~3 years ago, my image hosting has changed since.
post_break 8y ago
Now the keyboards are riveted on from what I understand making it even more difficult.
abrowne 8y ago
For any MacBook (Air/Pro) since they've been "unibody" (introduced in 2008), Apple's keyboard repair is (almost?) always a whole new "top case". More is moved than just the logic board — display, speakers, storage — but the keyboard itself isn't removed at the shop or repair depot. Now presumably they use all those bad top cases as refurb parts to some degree, so someone removes the keyboard . . .
- jakobegger 8y ago
  For the older scissor keys, you can get replacement keycaps from ebay, and install them with a bit of fidgeting yourself. So even if Apple doesn't replace individual keys, you can do it yourself, and fix a broken keyboard for around 15€. With the new butterfly keys that is apparently no longer possible.
  - abrowne 8y ago
    Apple and Apple service providers can get replacement keycaps from Apple and replace keycaps, even for the butterfly keyboards. The linked article even says, "The type of service [...] may involve the replacement of one or more keys". The butterfly ones are more complicated to replace. But this only helps with some kinds of key issues where the keycap or scissor mechanism is the problem, like sticking or rubbing keys (and dirty keys). It usually doesn't help with issues like no key response or wrong letter being typed. In this case the keyboard, and therefore the top case, would need to be replaced.
    - jakobegger 8y ago
      A few years ago I brought a 2011 Macbook Air to an Apple authorized repair shop, and they told me they could only replace the entire keyboard. So if they started replacing individual keys, that must be something new, I've never heard about that. Everything I've read suggests that they only replace the entire keyboard, or in the case of the new Macbook, the entire top half of the computer. I've also read that the scissor switch breaks when you try to remove the keycap, so I'm not sure how replacing individual keys would work.
dp141 8y ago
This is the general trend in Apple in making almost everything difficult to service directly to make case more easily manufactured lighter. Course when something goes wrong...
volkl48 8y ago
Among my many hats, I do some official Apple work. What you are talking about is not allowed for work done under Apple. The top case is one part which cannot be disassembled so far as they are concerned. It contains the main part of the shell, the keyboard, the trackpad, and the battery. A failure in any part of it is to be serviced by a complete replacement of the top case. It is not an exceptionally expensive component, but it is a significant amount of labor. The top case is pretty much the "base" that all other components are attached to. Which means you take everything else out (logic board, display, fans, vent, etc) and move it to the new one. Also, the touch ID bit is a bitch to move.
- fyfy18 8y ago
  Maybe something like this will finally force Apple to start making their laptops more serviceable. After being an Apple user since 2006, I’ve just switched to a Thinkpad for my home machine. Compared to a MacBook Air, the X series is only 1mm thicker, but smaller in all other dimensions, including weight. Yet I can upgrade the storage and memory, and replace parts myself that fail (the battery can be swapped while it’s running). It also has a full array of ports including USB type A & C, HDMI, headphone jack, SD card slot (the latest version has replaced the Ethernet port with a dongle). Admitidely they don’t look as nice, but I’m not really a design sensitive person.
  - jablan 8y ago
    > Maybe something like this will finally force Apple to start making their laptops more serviceable. I am afraid they will just increase the already huge margins, to account for similar cases in the future.
    - Bud 8y ago
      They won't. So you can stop having that fear. There's no evidence whatsoever that they'd even consider that.
    - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
      I'm pretty sure they charge based on what the market will bear rather than what it costs them to manufacture and service. If they have been effective at this it means there is no room for increases. In other words if customers would accept higher prices then Apple would have already increased the prices.

gowld 8y ago

What's a source of MacBook tops? Why do you transfer the logic board? Do you need to obtain a new logic board (as part of the "top", and trash the original machine's logic board? ) As I recall (no pun intended) from past recalls, a logic board change is $300 itself (but that includes some redundancy if you are already doing a service call to change another part of the device)

Mister_Snuggles 8y ago
On the new MacBook Pros, and probably the MacBooks too, the chips that make up the SSD are soldered onto the logic board. The logic board change swap is required for the customer to keep their data.
- abrowne 8y ago
  The SSD is part of the motherboard for MBPs with Touch Bar, both 15- and 13-inch, and MacBooks. The 13-inch without the Touch Bar, internally a very different design, does still have a separate SSD.
  - _wmd 8y ago
    This is very welcome news to me, and I've seen it nowhere else. Do you have a canonical source for it? How about the RAM?
    - jdietrich 8y ago
      The SSD is socketed but proprietary, using a non-standard connector and an Apple-designed controller chip. The RAM is soldered. https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Function+Keys+Late+2016+Teardown/72415#s144817 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Function...
    - abrowne 8y ago
      My canonical source is my eyes, having opened up all three types ;-) But the sibling comment has pictures and is right about the ram.
p1mrx 8y ago
I'd assume "transfer the logic board" means that the user's original board moves to the new case. Sort of like how a head transplant is equivalent to a body transplant.
- petecooper 8y ago
  Correct.

codetrotter 8y ago

> image safe for work Is there any reason to expect an image of some screws and a grain of rice not to be safe for work? Genuinely curious. Like, what else would possibly be in that image? I think in general we expect all images on HN to be safe for work. And if they are not then people warn about that. Were there any NSFW images that you came across when searching for this one?

jacobush 8y ago
You get the sweats easily, I usually undress completely while unscrewing MacBook keyboards. It's a dirty business.
donarb 8y ago
imgur.com hosts quite a few NSFW images. A company's firewall might be blocking images coming from there.
- petecooper 8y ago
  ^^ This. I've had two instances where I'd used Imgur for image grabbing of screenshots and they turned out to be on the same page as NSFW images, which was out of my control. That photo I took with the screws was ~3 years ago, my image hosting has changed since.

post_break 8y ago

Now the keyboards are riveted on from what I understand making it even more difficult.

abrowne 8y ago

For any MacBook (Air/Pro) since they've been "unibody" (introduced in 2008), Apple's keyboard repair is (almost?) always a whole new "top case". More is moved than just the logic board — display, speakers, storage — but the keyboard itself isn't removed at the shop or repair depot. Now presumably they use all those bad top cases as refurb parts to some degree, so someone removes the keyboard . . .

jakobegger 8y ago
For the older scissor keys, you can get replacement keycaps from ebay, and install them with a bit of fidgeting yourself. So even if Apple doesn't replace individual keys, you can do it yourself, and fix a broken keyboard for around 15€. With the new butterfly keys that is apparently no longer possible.
- abrowne 8y ago
  Apple and Apple service providers can get replacement keycaps from Apple and replace keycaps, even for the butterfly keyboards. The linked article even says, "The type of service [...] may involve the replacement of one or more keys". The butterfly ones are more complicated to replace. But this only helps with some kinds of key issues where the keycap or scissor mechanism is the problem, like sticking or rubbing keys (and dirty keys). It usually doesn't help with issues like no key response or wrong letter being typed. In this case the keyboard, and therefore the top case, would need to be replaced.
  - jakobegger 8y ago
    A few years ago I brought a 2011 Macbook Air to an Apple authorized repair shop, and they told me they could only replace the entire keyboard. So if they started replacing individual keys, that must be something new, I've never heard about that. Everything I've read suggests that they only replace the entire keyboard, or in the case of the new Macbook, the entire top half of the computer. I've also read that the scissor switch breaks when you try to remove the keycap, so I'm not sure how replacing individual keys would work.

dp141 8y ago

This is the general trend in Apple in making almost everything difficult to service directly to make case more easily manufactured lighter. Course when something goes wrong...

volkl48 8y ago

Among my many hats, I do some official Apple work. What you are talking about is not allowed for work done under Apple. The top case is one part which cannot be disassembled so far as they are concerned. It contains the main part of the shell, the keyboard, the trackpad, and the battery. A failure in any part of it is to be serviced by a complete replacement of the top case. It is not an exceptionally expensive component, but it is a significant amount of labor. The top case is pretty much the "base" that all other components are attached to. Which means you take everything else out (logic board, display, fans, vent, etc) and move it to the new one. Also, the touch ID bit is a bitch to move.

fyfy18 8y ago
Maybe something like this will finally force Apple to start making their laptops more serviceable. After being an Apple user since 2006, I’ve just switched to a Thinkpad for my home machine. Compared to a MacBook Air, the X series is only 1mm thicker, but smaller in all other dimensions, including weight. Yet I can upgrade the storage and memory, and replace parts myself that fail (the battery can be swapped while it’s running). It also has a full array of ports including USB type A & C, HDMI, headphone jack, SD card slot (the latest version has replaced the Ethernet port with a dongle). Admitidely they don’t look as nice, but I’m not really a design sensitive person.
- jablan 8y ago
  > Maybe something like this will finally force Apple to start making their laptops more serviceable. I am afraid they will just increase the already huge margins, to account for similar cases in the future.
  - Bud 8y ago
    They won't. So you can stop having that fear. There's no evidence whatsoever that they'd even consider that.
  - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
    I'm pretty sure they charge based on what the market will bear rather than what it costs them to manufacture and service. If they have been effective at this it means there is no room for increases. In other words if customers would accept higher prices then Apple would have already increased the prices.