5 ms·

The more we fight each other the less we are fighting "them".

wheremind 8y ago
Yes, it seems like classic divide and conquer strategy but I have no evidence for it. the idea has been kind of obsessing me a bit recently, I'd love to see someone that has actually looked into it and tried to compile a bit of data.
- TAForObvReasons 8y ago
  This is a very old thought. Both LBJ and MLK understood this, at least in the context of racism as a tool to divide the lower and middle classes of society. You've probably heard this quote, attributed to LBJ: > If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.
  - wheremind 8y ago
    I know, I'm wondering whether anyone's looked into it in the context of the occupy wall street movement. The popular consciousness was so strongly diverted at the point it began to threaten elite interests that it's at least noteworthy, yet I've never really seen it talked about much. It may just be an artifact of the rise of social media, although I'm not sure that the timelines really match up very well. I just want to see if anyone's really looked into it because I don't even know where to start with something like that, but it's been playing on my mind for a few months now.
    - jryan49 8y ago
      I went to a few of the protests to watch, not really take part. It seemed to me that they had a crazy flat purely democratic structure (or unstructure :P). So much in fact that they couldn't decide on what to focus on or how to move forward. A lot of them also seemed to not understand how our financial system works.
      - wheremind 8y ago
        Yeah, I agree about the street protests themselves were pretty dysfunctional, that wasn't really what I was talking about. The protests were really only the tip of the iceberg at the time. There seemed to be a much wider focus on the gaming of systems and regulatory capture (mostly) by a financial industry that pretty much seemed to be just a state protected tool for money farmers.
mythrwy 8y ago
The tricky part is there is no "them" to fight. "Them" is just another "Us". And "we" are responsible for the way things are (albeit to lesser degree perhaps) the same as bank presidents and congressional representatives and CEOs of large corporations. My feeling is we can't lay the problems of the modern world at the feet of individuals. There isn't a shadowy cabal intent on keep the little people down. It's just people and groups struggling for power and resources with varying degrees of a success. That's not to say there aren't collusions and conspiracies and bad doings by people with power, there most certainly are, but the fact these succeed are problems of a system. Because people are people are people and the new boss is same as the old boss and 4 legs good 2 legs better and all that jazz. What is needed are some systemic updates. And these will happen inevitably I think.
- mythrwy 8y ago
  Just to expand a bit on the above, look at currently top rated poster with 100K in student loans. I think it's somewhat axiomatic this out of balance and most people would consider it "wrong" and "abusive". So who is to blame? The bankers? Well, ya, partially. The government who let it get like this and didn't make funding education a priority? Yep, as well. School administrators who keep adding on layer after layer of useless non-productive bureaucracy driving up costs to astronomical levels? Yep, them too. How about companies that insist someone sit in classes like literature for at least a couple of years before they can push buttons on a machine? Yep. How about people who try to fake their way into jobs they can't do necessitating the previous? well, yep, them too. How about a guy who wants to "get on with the university" so he can have good benefits and a pension after 20 or 30 years? he's partially to blame as well. Point is, we can't just blame bankers and politicians and corporations and call it a day. Our activity, almost to the person is responsible for the horrible outcomes. We all are trying to get a little piece of the pie and the sum total in this system is producing undesirable side effects. Housing is another prime example. It's ridiculous. Way out of wack. Unless you bought a house 30 years ago then what a great way to save for retirement and housing appreciating is fantastic! I really think we need to back up and address some fundamentals. Housing, healthcare and education being big ones. These aren't a place for speculation and self serving bureaucracy. They are necessities of life and an advancing society. So we need to change some things about how these are run. But that means some people will no longer be able to victimize others and will lose out. But it's not all just bankers and CEOs. It's a lot of little sucker fish attached to the ecosystem as well. So it's not as easy as just getting out the guillotine which is all too common of a reaction.
claydavisss 8y ago
The typical HN reader is firmly entrenched in the establishment or wishes they were. What does a developer making $200k stand to gain by demanding economic justice?
- miketery 8y ago
  the intelligentsia was the first to go during the red revolution.
- astura 8y ago
  A populous that won't come after them with pitchforks.

Yes, it seems like classic divide and conquer strategy but I have no evidence for it. the idea has been kind of obsessing me a bit recently, I'd love to see someone that has actually looked into it and tried to compile a bit of data.

TAForObvReasons 8y ago
This is a very old thought. Both LBJ and MLK understood this, at least in the context of racism as a tool to divide the lower and middle classes of society. You've probably heard this quote, attributed to LBJ: > If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.
- wheremind 8y ago
  I know, I'm wondering whether anyone's looked into it in the context of the occupy wall street movement. The popular consciousness was so strongly diverted at the point it began to threaten elite interests that it's at least noteworthy, yet I've never really seen it talked about much. It may just be an artifact of the rise of social media, although I'm not sure that the timelines really match up very well. I just want to see if anyone's really looked into it because I don't even know where to start with something like that, but it's been playing on my mind for a few months now.
  - jryan49 8y ago
    I went to a few of the protests to watch, not really take part. It seemed to me that they had a crazy flat purely democratic structure (or unstructure :P). So much in fact that they couldn't decide on what to focus on or how to move forward. A lot of them also seemed to not understand how our financial system works.
    - wheremind 8y ago
      Yeah, I agree about the street protests themselves were pretty dysfunctional, that wasn't really what I was talking about. The protests were really only the tip of the iceberg at the time. There seemed to be a much wider focus on the gaming of systems and regulatory capture (mostly) by a financial industry that pretty much seemed to be just a state protected tool for money farmers.

mythrwy 8y ago

The tricky part is there is no "them" to fight. "Them" is just another "Us". And "we" are responsible for the way things are (albeit to lesser degree perhaps) the same as bank presidents and congressional representatives and CEOs of large corporations. My feeling is we can't lay the problems of the modern world at the feet of individuals. There isn't a shadowy cabal intent on keep the little people down. It's just people and groups struggling for power and resources with varying degrees of a success. That's not to say there aren't collusions and conspiracies and bad doings by people with power, there most certainly are, but the fact these succeed are problems of a system. Because people are people are people and the new boss is same as the old boss and 4 legs good 2 legs better and all that jazz. What is needed are some systemic updates. And these will happen inevitably I think.

mythrwy 8y ago
Just to expand a bit on the above, look at currently top rated poster with 100K in student loans. I think it's somewhat axiomatic this out of balance and most people would consider it "wrong" and "abusive". So who is to blame? The bankers? Well, ya, partially. The government who let it get like this and didn't make funding education a priority? Yep, as well. School administrators who keep adding on layer after layer of useless non-productive bureaucracy driving up costs to astronomical levels? Yep, them too. How about companies that insist someone sit in classes like literature for at least a couple of years before they can push buttons on a machine? Yep. How about people who try to fake their way into jobs they can't do necessitating the previous? well, yep, them too. How about a guy who wants to "get on with the university" so he can have good benefits and a pension after 20 or 30 years? he's partially to blame as well. Point is, we can't just blame bankers and politicians and corporations and call it a day. Our activity, almost to the person is responsible for the horrible outcomes. We all are trying to get a little piece of the pie and the sum total in this system is producing undesirable side effects. Housing is another prime example. It's ridiculous. Way out of wack. Unless you bought a house 30 years ago then what a great way to save for retirement and housing appreciating is fantastic! I really think we need to back up and address some fundamentals. Housing, healthcare and education being big ones. These aren't a place for speculation and self serving bureaucracy. They are necessities of life and an advancing society. So we need to change some things about how these are run. But that means some people will no longer be able to victimize others and will lose out. But it's not all just bankers and CEOs. It's a lot of little sucker fish attached to the ecosystem as well. So it's not as easy as just getting out the guillotine which is all too common of a reaction.

claydavisss 8y ago

The typical HN reader is firmly entrenched in the establishment or wishes they were. What does a developer making $200k stand to gain by demanding economic justice?

miketery 8y ago
the intelligentsia was the first to go during the red revolution.
astura 8y ago
A populous that won't come after them with pitchforks.