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Academic immigrants these days are also potentially undercutting/warping expectations about labor in academic labs. 36k (for grad students) or 50k (for postdoc

Academic immigrants these days are also potentially undercutting/warping expectations about labor in academic labs. 36k (for grad students) or 50k (for postdocs) are hardly acceptable salaries from an American perspective, but to folks from India and China those salaries are fortunes relatively speaking. To Indians/Chinese a 70 hour work week for that money might be worth it. Contrast this to past academic immigration in the 40s that you refer to, where immigrants were from countries with similar sensibilities and levels of development (primarily German Jews). I don't think that this necessarily invalidates your points, but it's worth pointing out that there are economic consequences when larger slices of the PhD candidates out there are from developing nations instead of other developed nations.

forapurpose 8y ago
> immigrants were from countries with similar sensibilities People in the U.S. have been complaining about the 'values' and 'sensibilities' of the new immigrants since Benjamin Franklin would go off about Germans. Then of course it was Irish, the Italians, etc. etc. Older generations of Central European Jewish people even complained about the Eastern European Jewish immigrants at the turn of the 20th century. Of course, for most Americans, those people with the 'wrong values' and 'foreign sensibilities' are your ancestors. Human beings have their own sensibilities as individuals, not those of some country or ethnicity - people in my own family don't even share those things. I'm sure the parent would not want to be told what they will think and what they will do based on where they were born; that they can't determine their own character; it's absurd. And the truth is that when you give them liberty and opportunity, they thrive and share those same universal values. The track record is undeniable. So please let's not make the same mistake again. The sensibilities of 1930s Germany? Italy? Egads. Though I guess they also discriminated based on nationalism and ethnicity. It's a happy, wonderful thing: Let's believe in people, give them freedom and opportunity, and everyone thrives.
- neuromantik8086 8y ago
  > The sensibilities of 1930s Germany? Or maybe the sensibilities of early 20th century Europe, which was friendlier towards socialist, pro-labor policies than both modern India and China (people tend to forget that the SPD existed before Hitler). I know it's a hot-button issue, but I'm not anti-immigration and you're preaching at the wrong person. I will strongly disagree with your somewhat extreme belief that sensibilities are purely individual; having lived two separate countries, with two separate languages and cultures, it's a bit quixotic to claim that cultural and other environmental factors are irrelevant, and cultural universals are notoriously difficult to pin down.
  - forapurpose 8y ago
    > the sensibilities of early 20th century Europe These are the sensibilities that led to the two worst wars in world history, that gave birth to both Nazism (and other fascists) and Bolshevik totalitarian Communism, that produced millions of people (in Germany, Russia, Eastern European countries, France, and more) who participated in or stood by while tens of millions were murdered in German-controlled territory and were starved in Ukraine? All those people were the products of the 'sensibilities' of early 20th century Europe. By the standards of some, the U.S. should never have let any emigrate.
    - 18pfsmt 8y ago
      I can't believe what I've read in this sub-thread. Thanks for sticking up for liberty and opportunity, as that is what the USA what founded upon.
      - forapurpose 8y ago
        Thanks. > I can't believe what I've read in this sub-thread. Human naturally follow the norms around them. It's how they choose their clothes, their music, their phones, and unfortunately, their politics. If they see other people saying these things, they will think it's acceptable; if they see lots of other people saying them, they will think it's the norm and join in. > Thanks for sticking up for liberty and opportunity First, I want to make clear that I'm nothing special. Second, I'm going to be an a-hole for a moment and quote a line from a song I heard from a frustrated advocate: It's nice that you listen; it would be nicer if you joined in. It's critical that everyone speak up. Imagine that nobody responded in this thread; think of the impression that would leave for readers - these prejudices are an unchallenged, widespread belief. Look at what it means for just one person to speak up. Now imagine two, or three. It's like bullying; one person speaking up can change things. Two do even more, and provide even more inspiration to the third and fourth and fifth people. It takes some nerve and courage for me, but never let these things pass; speak up; in social situations it can be tricky, but find polite ways to speak up. I have the privilege of safety; I'm not going to let some social pressure and natural human herd mentality stop me while people are suffering; people have suffered far more for liberty than that! People worry that there's nothing they can do, but in fact every single voice counts.

forapurpose 8y ago

> immigrants were from countries with similar sensibilities People in the U.S. have been complaining about the 'values' and 'sensibilities' of the new immigrants since Benjamin Franklin would go off about Germans. Then of course it was Irish, the Italians, etc. etc. Older generations of Central European Jewish people even complained about the Eastern European Jewish immigrants at the turn of the 20th century. Of course, for most Americans, those people with the 'wrong values' and 'foreign sensibilities' are your ancestors. Human beings have their own sensibilities as individuals, not those of some country or ethnicity - people in my own family don't even share those things. I'm sure the parent would not want to be told what they will think and what they will do based on where they were born; that they can't determine their own character; it's absurd. And the truth is that when you give them liberty and opportunity, they thrive and share those same universal values. The track record is undeniable. So please let's not make the same mistake again. The sensibilities of 1930s Germany? Italy? Egads. Though I guess they also discriminated based on nationalism and ethnicity. It's a happy, wonderful thing: Let's believe in people, give them freedom and opportunity, and everyone thrives.

neuromantik8086 8y ago
> The sensibilities of 1930s Germany? Or maybe the sensibilities of early 20th century Europe, which was friendlier towards socialist, pro-labor policies than both modern India and China (people tend to forget that the SPD existed before Hitler). I know it's a hot-button issue, but I'm not anti-immigration and you're preaching at the wrong person. I will strongly disagree with your somewhat extreme belief that sensibilities are purely individual; having lived two separate countries, with two separate languages and cultures, it's a bit quixotic to claim that cultural and other environmental factors are irrelevant, and cultural universals are notoriously difficult to pin down.
- forapurpose 8y ago
  > the sensibilities of early 20th century Europe These are the sensibilities that led to the two worst wars in world history, that gave birth to both Nazism (and other fascists) and Bolshevik totalitarian Communism, that produced millions of people (in Germany, Russia, Eastern European countries, France, and more) who participated in or stood by while tens of millions were murdered in German-controlled territory and were starved in Ukraine? All those people were the products of the 'sensibilities' of early 20th century Europe. By the standards of some, the U.S. should never have let any emigrate.
  - 18pfsmt 8y ago
    I can't believe what I've read in this sub-thread. Thanks for sticking up for liberty and opportunity, as that is what the USA what founded upon.
    - forapurpose 8y ago
      Thanks. > I can't believe what I've read in this sub-thread. Human naturally follow the norms around them. It's how they choose their clothes, their music, their phones, and unfortunately, their politics. If they see other people saying these things, they will think it's acceptable; if they see lots of other people saying them, they will think it's the norm and join in. > Thanks for sticking up for liberty and opportunity First, I want to make clear that I'm nothing special. Second, I'm going to be an a-hole for a moment and quote a line from a song I heard from a frustrated advocate: It's nice that you listen; it would be nicer if you joined in. It's critical that everyone speak up. Imagine that nobody responded in this thread; think of the impression that would leave for readers - these prejudices are an unchallenged, widespread belief. Look at what it means for just one person to speak up. Now imagine two, or three. It's like bullying; one person speaking up can change things. Two do even more, and provide even more inspiration to the third and fourth and fifth people. It takes some nerve and courage for me, but never let these things pass; speak up; in social situations it can be tricky, but find polite ways to speak up. I have the privilege of safety; I'm not going to let some social pressure and natural human herd mentality stop me while people are suffering; people have suffered far more for liberty than that! People worry that there's nothing they can do, but in fact every single voice counts.