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"A toxicology test carried out on Ms Herzberg after the accident returned positive results for methamphetamine and marijuana." You know. So what? I always thi

"A toxicology test carried out on Ms Herzberg after the accident returned positive results for methamphetamine and marijuana." You know. So what? I always think it's especially galling when, for example a cop shoots a black teenager, the police departments spinmeisters immediately start to smear the victim. As if smoking marijuana is a character fault and makes the victim implicitly a crook with low morals.

vorpalhex 8y ago
People on drugs tend to behave in erratic ways. In the case of a jaywalker, this might be as simple as crossing with no warning when a sober person might not cross. Any driver (human or machine) should of course do their absolute best to avoid a collision, but whether or not that collision is avoidable is determined in part by the object you collide with. In the case of violence by the police, somebody who is holding a weapon and behaving erratically is inherently more of a threat then somebody holding a weapon and complying. There's nothing per-say "evil" about drugs, but somebody with meth in their system is a hell of a lot harder to predict then somebody sober, whether that's in terms of jaywalking or a violent confrontation. When we evaluate situations, especially emotionally involving situations, we have to try and gather the totality of evidence.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  "In the case of violence by the police, somebody who is holding a weapon and behaving erratically is inherently more of a threat then somebody holding a weapon and complying." Except that in a lot of cases the victims were unarmed.
  - vorpalhex 8y ago
    I recently took up martial arts, and after sparring a few times, I've learned that you do not need to be armed to be a threat. If somebody drives an elbow to the back of your head with force, you're going to the hospital. If somebody manages to get you in a clinch, you are likely going to pass out. If somebody manages to get you on the ground while they're standing - you better really hope they're content to walk away at that point because they can permanently mess you up for the rest of your life. Any case of self defense needs to be evaluated by a court. I'm not suggesting police should get a free pass, but that somebody is unarmed does not mean they are not a lethal threat.
    - CaptainZapp 8y ago
      I wouldn't clame that all cop shootings are in bad faith by the cops. Sometimes violence is necessary (alas, it seems to happen in the US exponentially more often than in other developed countries). But if you have a gun and the person that you target hasn't then threats as you describe them usually don't come to play. It especially doesn't explain that cops shoot people into the back, when they very clearly pose no threat. And they often used to get away with it would it not be for video. And still victims are smeared.
      - vorpalhex 8y ago
        You have a pistol pointed at someone who you perceive to be a threat. The person charges you from 30 feet away. Do you shoot them? Does that change if they have a knife? What if it's dark and they're holding something that seems like a knife but you're not sure? Holding a gun doesn't make you immune to being injured or killed. Pointing a gun at someone doesn't always make them comply. A gun is a deadly weapon, but it's not a token of immunity and compliance. Shooting someone doesn't magically stop them or cause them to become a statue or a corpse. > cops shoot people into the back You're a police officer. You're called to investigate a violent rape by a suspect armed by a knife. The suspect runs and is quickly getting away. Do you: 1. Shoot them in the back 2. Let them escape and possibly rape someone else, hoping you catch them in the future Neither of those is a good outcome and, just to make things more confusing, different states and departments have different rules in those situations. > still victims are smeared You can't know who the victim is until after the chips have landed. If someone gets shot by a police officer, they might have been an innocent person doing nothing wrong, or they might have been a violent predator who sexually assaults and murders kids for fun. When we're trying to assess that situation, you need all the evidence to come out - whether that hurts the cop (How many times have they used their weapons before? Do they have previous misconduct charges? Have they made racially charged statements previously?) or the person on the other side (Do they have a history of violence and crime? Are they a known felon? Were they on drugs?) There are a few YouTube videos of use-of-force activists undergoing police training (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g) and one of the things that stands out to me is that they are very, very fast to pull the trigger compared to most police officers. That isn't to say their points are invalid, but it's easy to criticize from a sofa and it's a different thing to be in that fight-or-flight life-or-death moment of decision making.
- FireBeyond 8y ago
  > People on drugs tend to behave in erratic ways. This, however, is part of the problem. She had traces of drugs _in her system_. Without knowing the amounts, you cannot say she was _under the influence_. You can detect marijuana in the system several days after smoking a single joint. You're certainly not high at that point. I'm not sure what the detection timeframe is for meth. Certainly, if someone is _under the influence_ of a drug or drugs, that's one thing. Similarly, I also work for Medic One in my area, training new EMTs. One of the perennial discussions is about being "altered", and consent, because we discuss implied consent in the context of intoxication. It has to be explained that just because someone has had one drink, does not impair them, or their ability to consent, and that tests more revolve around ability to comprehend consequences of decisions and actions. Simply put, I ask them, "You had a beer. Are you allowed to drive home?" "Yes, of course!" "So why would you not be allowed to make your own medical decisions?" "Ohhhh..."
jrs95 8y ago
Walking into traffic without paying attention and getting hit by a car is incredibly stupid. A sober person would be far less likely to do that.
- mcguire 8y ago
  Have you ever done anything stupid?
  - jrs95 8y ago
    Sure, but fortunately nothing nearly stupid enough to get me killed.
- malcolmgreaves 8y ago
  The driver is at fault.
  - jrs95 8y ago
    Yes, I’ve said the same as well. But to pretend like you don’t know why it’s significant that the victim was on meth is ridiculous. You have to be pretty fucked up to just walk in front of a car that even a blind person would know is coming
cfadvan 8y ago
D.A.R.V.O. Deny Accuse Reverse Victim and Offender It’s a playbook that’s as old as people, and sadly it works, especially when there’s a significant power asymmetry at play. That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did... You deserved it. All of this is usually applied to narcissists, psychopaths and sociopaths, but it works equally well for immoral corporations.

vorpalhex 8y ago

People on drugs tend to behave in erratic ways. In the case of a jaywalker, this might be as simple as crossing with no warning when a sober person might not cross. Any driver (human or machine) should of course do their absolute best to avoid a collision, but whether or not that collision is avoidable is determined in part by the object you collide with. In the case of violence by the police, somebody who is holding a weapon and behaving erratically is inherently more of a threat then somebody holding a weapon and complying. There's nothing per-say "evil" about drugs, but somebody with meth in their system is a hell of a lot harder to predict then somebody sober, whether that's in terms of jaywalking or a violent confrontation. When we evaluate situations, especially emotionally involving situations, we have to try and gather the totality of evidence.

CaptainZapp 8y ago
"In the case of violence by the police, somebody who is holding a weapon and behaving erratically is inherently more of a threat then somebody holding a weapon and complying." Except that in a lot of cases the victims were unarmed.
- vorpalhex 8y ago
  I recently took up martial arts, and after sparring a few times, I've learned that you do not need to be armed to be a threat. If somebody drives an elbow to the back of your head with force, you're going to the hospital. If somebody manages to get you in a clinch, you are likely going to pass out. If somebody manages to get you on the ground while they're standing - you better really hope they're content to walk away at that point because they can permanently mess you up for the rest of your life. Any case of self defense needs to be evaluated by a court. I'm not suggesting police should get a free pass, but that somebody is unarmed does not mean they are not a lethal threat.
  - CaptainZapp 8y ago
    I wouldn't clame that all cop shootings are in bad faith by the cops. Sometimes violence is necessary (alas, it seems to happen in the US exponentially more often than in other developed countries). But if you have a gun and the person that you target hasn't then threats as you describe them usually don't come to play. It especially doesn't explain that cops shoot people into the back, when they very clearly pose no threat. And they often used to get away with it would it not be for video. And still victims are smeared.
    - vorpalhex 8y ago
      You have a pistol pointed at someone who you perceive to be a threat. The person charges you from 30 feet away. Do you shoot them? Does that change if they have a knife? What if it's dark and they're holding something that seems like a knife but you're not sure? Holding a gun doesn't make you immune to being injured or killed. Pointing a gun at someone doesn't always make them comply. A gun is a deadly weapon, but it's not a token of immunity and compliance. Shooting someone doesn't magically stop them or cause them to become a statue or a corpse. > cops shoot people into the back You're a police officer. You're called to investigate a violent rape by a suspect armed by a knife. The suspect runs and is quickly getting away. Do you: 1. Shoot them in the back 2. Let them escape and possibly rape someone else, hoping you catch them in the future Neither of those is a good outcome and, just to make things more confusing, different states and departments have different rules in those situations. > still victims are smeared You can't know who the victim is until after the chips have landed. If someone gets shot by a police officer, they might have been an innocent person doing nothing wrong, or they might have been a violent predator who sexually assaults and murders kids for fun. When we're trying to assess that situation, you need all the evidence to come out - whether that hurts the cop (How many times have they used their weapons before? Do they have previous misconduct charges? Have they made racially charged statements previously?) or the person on the other side (Do they have a history of violence and crime? Are they a known felon? Were they on drugs?) There are a few YouTube videos of use-of-force activists undergoing police training (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g) and one of the things that stands out to me is that they are very, very fast to pull the trigger compared to most police officers. That isn't to say their points are invalid, but it's easy to criticize from a sofa and it's a different thing to be in that fight-or-flight life-or-death moment of decision making.
FireBeyond 8y ago
> People on drugs tend to behave in erratic ways. This, however, is part of the problem. She had traces of drugs _in her system_. Without knowing the amounts, you cannot say she was _under the influence_. You can detect marijuana in the system several days after smoking a single joint. You're certainly not high at that point. I'm not sure what the detection timeframe is for meth. Certainly, if someone is _under the influence_ of a drug or drugs, that's one thing. Similarly, I also work for Medic One in my area, training new EMTs. One of the perennial discussions is about being "altered", and consent, because we discuss implied consent in the context of intoxication. It has to be explained that just because someone has had one drink, does not impair them, or their ability to consent, and that tests more revolve around ability to comprehend consequences of decisions and actions. Simply put, I ask them, "You had a beer. Are you allowed to drive home?" "Yes, of course!" "So why would you not be allowed to make your own medical decisions?" "Ohhhh..."

jrs95 8y ago

Walking into traffic without paying attention and getting hit by a car is incredibly stupid. A sober person would be far less likely to do that.

mcguire 8y ago
Have you ever done anything stupid?
- jrs95 8y ago
  Sure, but fortunately nothing nearly stupid enough to get me killed.
malcolmgreaves 8y ago
The driver is at fault.
- jrs95 8y ago
  Yes, I’ve said the same as well. But to pretend like you don’t know why it’s significant that the victim was on meth is ridiculous. You have to be pretty fucked up to just walk in front of a car that even a blind person would know is coming

cfadvan 8y ago

D.A.R.V.O. Deny Accuse Reverse Victim and Offender It’s a playbook that’s as old as people, and sadly it works, especially when there’s a significant power asymmetry at play. That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did... You deserved it. All of this is usually applied to narcissists, psychopaths and sociopaths, but it works equally well for immoral corporations.