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While this should be upsetting, and I'm sure it was to the people who were affected, I'm actually happy to see it. I'm of the mindset that this will have an ove

by Endy 8y ago

While this should be upsetting, and I'm sure it was to the people who were affected, I'm actually happy to see it. I'm of the mindset that this will have an overall positive effect on the state of the Web. Why? Because users and devs both need to remember that companies are not friends, and contracts are only as enforceable as the courts will allow. Imagine if Google decided that tomorrow at 6AM PT they were pulling the plug on YouTube embedding, or GMail / GDrive integrations. The court's going to say, "They put in the contract that they can change the terms of service at any time, and they're not liable for outages or lack of service. And you signed it. Sucks for you." Then again, I'm just anti-corp in general and this gives me better reason to avoid Twitter.

bastawhiz 8y ago
There's a difference between Google turning off a feature and Google cutting off a whole service. This is the kind of thing negotiated with contracts. Lawyers on both sides. If you build your business around another company, you protect yourself. Twitter with surely get sued for this, if for no reason other than failure to provide a service that they promised to customers in writing. Thankfully, your flavor of cynicism generally does not apply in situations like this where many tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars are at stake.
- busterarm 8y ago
  > Thankfully, your flavor of cynicism generally does not apply in situations like this where many tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars are at stake. This will be how it turns out for a few big players with deep enough pockets. Surely though this is hurting somebody's business that can't afford the lawsuit -- potentially to the point of putting them out of business. That's good for Twitter (and especially Twitter, as precarious as they are). We've all joked for years about how FAANG pay their engineers so much mostly to keep other companies from being able to hire great engineers. We've gotten the big three slapped for colluding against their employees on wages. Why do you think they would engage in some anti-competitive business practices and not others?
  - consp 8y ago
    Couldn't you file a amicus curiae, advice the court and state the company has harmed multiple people which are unable to defend due to cost, wait for the case to settle with the big guys and then sue with reference to the original case? Not a lawyer, just interested.
pvg 8y ago
What other unpleasant things would you wish on people as a way to educate the public about the realities of contract law? Your internet service just deciding to cut you off with no notice? Water? Electricity? Ambulance or firefighters not showing up when you need them? That might help cull the hopelessly naive from the herd and have an overall positive effect on the state of the Web.
- deno 8y ago
  I’m aware of your sarcasm but will reply at face value: 1) If your business depends on Internet access you shouldn’t pay for a residential plan. You need an SLA. 2) Natural disasters happen. Not having emergency drinking water is very naïve. 3) If your business depends on electricity you should also get business rate with SLA and maybe have a backup generator or two. Heck, I have a UPS just to not lose the 15 minutes of work that’s not automatically backed up. 4) Yes, get a weapon (preferably a gun) and at least know enough first-aid to be able to stop a bleeding. Keep an aspirin on hand in case of a heart attack. Know your emergency exits and evacuation plan. Make sure you have the mindset to leave all your possessions behind in a burning inferno. All of the above used to be common sense before technology made us think we are immortal and entertainment distracted us from real world.
  - pvg 8y ago
    I'm not sure that's a reply to something I said. The poster thinks a crappy thing happening to someone is good for the web because, I dunno, it's some sort of teachable moment. That's pretty silly, to put it politely. I'm not wishing you an earthquake so that you'll learn basic disaster preparedness. And if you did, fates forbid, end up in an earthquake and were short on water, I don't think I or any sane person is going to be happy about it.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - deno 8y ago
      What if it’s a little earthquake? It will make you think twice about building your home on a bad foundation. I think the issue here, other than earthquakes being potentially very deadly, which makes this comparison a little absurd, is that they are in a sense unavoidable. On the other hand you can avoid using SaaS. For example, there’s enough market demand for Github to provide on-premises secure hosting. Clearly then, if SaaS as a whole is seen as fundamentally unreliable it will create more market demand for similar on-premises, or open source, or otherwise “buy not rent” model services, which I see as the motivation for OP’s comment.
csomar 8y ago
> Because users and devs both need to remember that companies are not friends, and contracts are only as enforceable as the courts will allow. I bet their term of services mentioned that they can cease operations on no notice.
- kelnos 8y ago
  For a free product, sure. But when you're signing a multi-year contract where money is changing hands, no way in hell would any customer accept that kind of clause in the contract.
- csomar 8y ago
  It'd be good if some customers share the terms of the contract. That'll resolve a part of the discussion.
- zaarn 8y ago
  Doubtful. For most long-term corporate contracts there is no "we might cease operations at any point and leave you hanging before end of the contract". No company lawyer I know would willingly put their signature on such a contract unless the other side is using a free tier. If someone actually signed 3 year contract with such a clause, congrats, you managed to throw a lot of money into a black hole.
acomjean 8y ago
Google does pull the plug on things, but generally give the customers a little time. Google gave 6 months notice for its ITA travel data. https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/01/google-will-pull-its-qpx-express-api-in-april-2018-cutting-off-its-flight-data-feed/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/01/google-will-pull-its-qpx-e... I'm not sure how good apple is, but when they buy software available on Windows that version usually gets killed. (See Logic music production, killed 3 months after purchasing, but presumably the old installs still worked.). Even Halo was demoed on mac before MS bought it (The mac version never came out)

by Endy 8y ago

bastawhiz 8y ago

There's a difference between Google turning off a feature and Google cutting off a whole service. This is the kind of thing negotiated with contracts. Lawyers on both sides. If you build your business around another company, you protect yourself. Twitter with surely get sued for this, if for no reason other than failure to provide a service that they promised to customers in writing. Thankfully, your flavor of cynicism generally does not apply in situations like this where many tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars are at stake.

busterarm 8y ago
> Thankfully, your flavor of cynicism generally does not apply in situations like this where many tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars are at stake. This will be how it turns out for a few big players with deep enough pockets. Surely though this is hurting somebody's business that can't afford the lawsuit -- potentially to the point of putting them out of business. That's good for Twitter (and especially Twitter, as precarious as they are). We've all joked for years about how FAANG pay their engineers so much mostly to keep other companies from being able to hire great engineers. We've gotten the big three slapped for colluding against their employees on wages. Why do you think they would engage in some anti-competitive business practices and not others?
- consp 8y ago
  Couldn't you file a amicus curiae, advice the court and state the company has harmed multiple people which are unable to defend due to cost, wait for the case to settle with the big guys and then sue with reference to the original case? Not a lawyer, just interested.

pvg 8y ago

What other unpleasant things would you wish on people as a way to educate the public about the realities of contract law? Your internet service just deciding to cut you off with no notice? Water? Electricity? Ambulance or firefighters not showing up when you need them? That might help cull the hopelessly naive from the herd and have an overall positive effect on the state of the Web.

deno 8y ago
I’m aware of your sarcasm but will reply at face value: 1) If your business depends on Internet access you shouldn’t pay for a residential plan. You need an SLA. 2) Natural disasters happen. Not having emergency drinking water is very naïve. 3) If your business depends on electricity you should also get business rate with SLA and maybe have a backup generator or two. Heck, I have a UPS just to not lose the 15 minutes of work that’s not automatically backed up. 4) Yes, get a weapon (preferably a gun) and at least know enough first-aid to be able to stop a bleeding. Keep an aspirin on hand in case of a heart attack. Know your emergency exits and evacuation plan. Make sure you have the mindset to leave all your possessions behind in a burning inferno. All of the above used to be common sense before technology made us think we are immortal and entertainment distracted us from real world.
- pvg 8y ago
  I'm not sure that's a reply to something I said. The poster thinks a crappy thing happening to someone is good for the web because, I dunno, it's some sort of teachable moment. That's pretty silly, to put it politely. I'm not wishing you an earthquake so that you'll learn basic disaster preparedness. And if you did, fates forbid, end up in an earthquake and were short on water, I don't think I or any sane person is going to be happy about it.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - deno 8y ago
    What if it’s a little earthquake? It will make you think twice about building your home on a bad foundation. I think the issue here, other than earthquakes being potentially very deadly, which makes this comparison a little absurd, is that they are in a sense unavoidable. On the other hand you can avoid using SaaS. For example, there’s enough market demand for Github to provide on-premises secure hosting. Clearly then, if SaaS as a whole is seen as fundamentally unreliable it will create more market demand for similar on-premises, or open source, or otherwise “buy not rent” model services, which I see as the motivation for OP’s comment.

csomar 8y ago

> Because users and devs both need to remember that companies are not friends, and contracts are only as enforceable as the courts will allow. I bet their term of services mentioned that they can cease operations on no notice.

kelnos 8y ago
For a free product, sure. But when you're signing a multi-year contract where money is changing hands, no way in hell would any customer accept that kind of clause in the contract.
csomar 8y ago
It'd be good if some customers share the terms of the contract. That'll resolve a part of the discussion.
zaarn 8y ago
Doubtful. For most long-term corporate contracts there is no "we might cease operations at any point and leave you hanging before end of the contract". No company lawyer I know would willingly put their signature on such a contract unless the other side is using a free tier. If someone actually signed 3 year contract with such a clause, congrats, you managed to throw a lot of money into a black hole.

acomjean 8y ago

Google does pull the plug on things, but generally give the customers a little time. Google gave 6 months notice for its ITA travel data. https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/01/google-will-pull-its-qpx-express-api-in-april-2018-cutting-off-its-flight-data-feed/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/01/google-will-pull-its-qpx-e... I'm not sure how good apple is, but when they buy software available on Windows that version usually gets killed. (See Logic music production, killed 3 months after purchasing, but presumably the old installs still worked.). Even Halo was demoed on mac before MS bought it (The mac version never came out)