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This is the problem that real public transit will address, obviously if you have no density then it doesn't make sense. But there are places in the US that do

This is the problem that real public transit will address, obviously if you have no density then it doesn't make sense. But there are places in the US that do have density where people sit in traffic all day and think its normal. It doesn't have to be complicated -> 400,000 cars move up and down my local freeway during rush hour, so build a subway underneath and make stops every mile or so. Go to the Ruhr/Cologne area of Germany, it is bunch of little and big cities all spread out across a large region and they have hundreds of transit options from high speed trains to trams to bus lines etc. Its very easy to get around and you don't have to sit in traffic on the autobahn. We need better transit in the States, you can't bury your head in the sand and proclaim that AV cars will solve everything. You have massive urban centers and metro areas that will continue to grow and roads just don't scale that well (look at LA)

AllegedAlec 8y ago
There is a big problem: the infrastructure needed for good public transport is increasingly nontrivial, especially in the larger European cities, which tend to be older cities with historic centres which they wish to preserve. It's all well and good to build a city from the ground up in a way that's PT friendly, but if you have a channel city, or one with a densely populated and vitised historic centre, it's immensely hard to be able to have a well-regulated and up to snuff public transport. Some anecdota: the netherlands has an excellent public transport networks. Our busiest train station, Utrecht Central station, has over a hundred million passengers going through it each year. To put that into perspective: there are roughly 17 million people in the Netherlands. To put that into further perspective: utrecht has 330K inhabitants. Over 5 times the entire population of the entire country is going through that station each year, and over three hundred times the entire population of the city the train station is in. I'm stunned daily by how little delays we have. However: the Uithof, the (mostly) STEM part of the Utrecht University's campus, is pretty big by Dutch standards. Most of them use the public transport to get there. There are roughly 35K people using public transport to travel to the Uithof each day, with an estimated 45K in 2020. There are a little over 2 double-bendy busses going to the Uithof from the Central station each minute during rush hour. Each double-bendy bus can, according to the specs [1], carry 150 people. A friend of mine who still goes to the Uithof daily using these busses told me that if he has to get there during rush hour, or leave during rush hour, will often have to wait anywhere from 30 to 45 minutes until there's space for him on a bus. To combat this, the goverment is spending 440 million euros to build a tram line from Central station to the Uithof, and it's still not sure that this will be enough. 1: http://soderholmbus.com/abc/pdfs/AGG300.pdf http://soderholmbus.com/abc/pdfs/AGG300.pdf
- bischofs 8y ago
  Interesting write up on this, I think there are plenty of opportunities for better engineering and big private/public projects. Like you said though these are non-trivial for sure. What I can say though is imagine all of those people at that University driving cars everywhere and parking at the Uni, and it quickly becomes a dystopian hellscape like LA. We should not let the perfect become the enemy of the good and forsake all public transit because it is difficult or expensive.
  - AllegedAlec 8y ago
    > Interesting write up on this, I think there are plenty of opportunities for better engineering and big private/public projects. Like you said though these are non-trivial for sure. Another fun short anecdote: that tramline they're building has run into a lot of problems on the Uithof itself. The Uithof contains a lot of rontgen and other electromagnetically sensitive equipment due to being home to a large hospital as well as several research groups using similar equipment. It has been moved several times during planning processes, as well as have its speed severly limited to not to interfere with the aforementioned equipment. > What I can say though is imagine all of those people at that University driving cars everywhere and parking at the Uni, and it quickly becomes a dystopian hellscape like LA. Yeah, I'm not trying to imply that this would be a better solution, because here it clearly is not, especially since the highway going past the uithof is a horrible bit of two-lane highway, which is a permanent traffic jam literally as far as the eye can see (and do not underestimate how far you can see in a land as flat as the Netherlands) in both directions during rush hours.
- owenversteeg 8y ago
  30-45 minutes? That sounds extreme. In the very worst crowding situations I've seen in the Netherlands I've only had to miss my bus a few times, and I just got on the next one which was fine. And that's from Leiden/Delft, where lots of students take the bus. 2 double-bendy buses is 300 people per minute. If he has to wait 45 minutes, he's in a line with 13,500 people. At 3 people/meter, that's a line 4.5 kilometers long. Now, I imagine it's more like a large crowd. But are you sure he has to wait 45 minutes? And are you sure there are two double-bendy buses per minute? 9292 says in the spits from the Uithof-Centraal there is one bus every 4 minutes.

AllegedAlec 8y ago

There is a big problem: the infrastructure needed for good public transport is increasingly nontrivial, especially in the larger European cities, which tend to be older cities with historic centres which they wish to preserve. It's all well and good to build a city from the ground up in a way that's PT friendly, but if you have a channel city, or one with a densely populated and vitised historic centre, it's immensely hard to be able to have a well-regulated and up to snuff public transport. Some anecdota: the netherlands has an excellent public transport networks. Our busiest train station, Utrecht Central station, has over a hundred million passengers going through it each year. To put that into perspective: there are roughly 17 million people in the Netherlands. To put that into further perspective: utrecht has 330K inhabitants. Over 5 times the entire population of the entire country is going through that station each year, and over three hundred times the entire population of the city the train station is in. I'm stunned daily by how little delays we have. However: the Uithof, the (mostly) STEM part of the Utrecht University's campus, is pretty big by Dutch standards. Most of them use the public transport to get there. There are roughly 35K people using public transport to travel to the Uithof each day, with an estimated 45K in 2020. There are a little over 2 double-bendy busses going to the Uithof from the Central station each minute during rush hour. Each double-bendy bus can, according to the specs [1], carry 150 people. A friend of mine who still goes to the Uithof daily using these busses told me that if he has to get there during rush hour, or leave during rush hour, will often have to wait anywhere from 30 to 45 minutes until there's space for him on a bus. To combat this, the goverment is spending 440 million euros to build a tram line from Central station to the Uithof, and it's still not sure that this will be enough. 1: http://soderholmbus.com/abc/pdfs/AGG300.pdf http://soderholmbus.com/abc/pdfs/AGG300.pdf

bischofs 8y ago
Interesting write up on this, I think there are plenty of opportunities for better engineering and big private/public projects. Like you said though these are non-trivial for sure. What I can say though is imagine all of those people at that University driving cars everywhere and parking at the Uni, and it quickly becomes a dystopian hellscape like LA. We should not let the perfect become the enemy of the good and forsake all public transit because it is difficult or expensive.
- AllegedAlec 8y ago
  > Interesting write up on this, I think there are plenty of opportunities for better engineering and big private/public projects. Like you said though these are non-trivial for sure. Another fun short anecdote: that tramline they're building has run into a lot of problems on the Uithof itself. The Uithof contains a lot of rontgen and other electromagnetically sensitive equipment due to being home to a large hospital as well as several research groups using similar equipment. It has been moved several times during planning processes, as well as have its speed severly limited to not to interfere with the aforementioned equipment. > What I can say though is imagine all of those people at that University driving cars everywhere and parking at the Uni, and it quickly becomes a dystopian hellscape like LA. Yeah, I'm not trying to imply that this would be a better solution, because here it clearly is not, especially since the highway going past the uithof is a horrible bit of two-lane highway, which is a permanent traffic jam literally as far as the eye can see (and do not underestimate how far you can see in a land as flat as the Netherlands) in both directions during rush hours.
owenversteeg 8y ago
30-45 minutes? That sounds extreme. In the very worst crowding situations I've seen in the Netherlands I've only had to miss my bus a few times, and I just got on the next one which was fine. And that's from Leiden/Delft, where lots of students take the bus. 2 double-bendy buses is 300 people per minute. If he has to wait 45 minutes, he's in a line with 13,500 people. At 3 people/meter, that's a line 4.5 kilometers long. Now, I imagine it's more like a large crowd. But are you sure he has to wait 45 minutes? And are you sure there are two double-bendy buses per minute? 9292 says in the spits from the Uithof-Centraal there is one bus every 4 minutes.