5 ms·

I would love to have the browser be a local "application server" on the desktop. Currently, people hate electron because shipping and running duplicate browsers

I would love to have the browser be a local "application server" on the desktop. Currently, people hate electron because shipping and running duplicate browsers is heavy-handed, insecure, and silly. There's definitely a different feeling between having a running Discord/Slack tab vs. using a native app for it, if you're using it a lot. A native notification bar icon, shortcuts in the menus/app launchers, the app not exiting if i need to restart the browser, the app not being affected by extensions I install (adblockers, etc). The app being separate from the browser is good. But it should still be the same engine running this. The same master process as well, possibly? Either way, Electron has been a huge boon for apps being available natively on Linux and that's just awesome. I don't want to lose that.

josteink 8y ago
> I would love to have the browser be a local "application server" on the desktop Back in the days we called that a WebView. And when MS made one with MSIE and used that in Windows, we sent the EU after them. How times change, eh?
- eddieroger 8y ago
  Except Electron won't do it using their market share to take out Netscape.
  - josteink 8y ago
    No. That’s Chrome’s doing to Firefox. Big difference, sure.
- reitanqild 8y ago
  > And when MS made one with MSIE and used that in Windows, we sent the EU after them. > How times change, eh? That was a very short story. Mine is a bit longer and includes MS intentionally crippling HTML if their servers sniffed Opera headers. Edit: Google employees here, -please remind your bosses and colleagues what happened last someone abused their position to dominate the browser market.
  - josefx 8y ago
    > please remind your bosses and colleagues what happened last someone abused their position to dominate the browser market. They got rich(er) and crippled competition for years to come?
    - reitanqild 8y ago
      Well they also got a fine so big [0] that they changed their ways somewhat[1] and still make money. But then again, I know nothing. This is just a feeling I have. [0]: Yes, and I think they also got the message loud and clear that this would just be a start unless they started behaving [1]: not saying they are saints yet, but as a nix user out in the trenches I very much prefer the current Microsoft.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >And when MS made one with MSIE and used that in Windows, we sent the EU after them. That was because they were a monopoly (among several other reasons, such as "bundling", threatening OEMs and so on). Not because they offered webviews (which was totally irrelevant).
  - josteink 8y ago
    Iirc the embedding in the OS (aka the webview) was one of the major complaints.
    - hshehehjdjdjd 8y ago
      But ... chromium is not embedded in the OS?
- scrollaway 8y ago
  Yes, I had webview in mind when I was writing that comment. But obviously WebViews aren't good enough. We're talking about enough functionality to own a multi-window app. Edit: What I more specifically had in mind was Firefox Prism, from circa 2007. https://wiki.mozilla.org/Prism https://wiki.mozilla.org/Prism Why this stuff didn't take / isn't more popular now, I don't really know.
- tambourine_man 8y ago
  With the exception of IE/EDGE, all major browsers use an open source rendering engine. It’s a lot easier to argue that a web browser is an essencial part of an OS this way.
lern_too_spel 8y ago
> A native notification bar icon, shortcuts in the menus/app launchers This already works out of the box. "More tools -> Create shortcut..." in Chrome will create a launcher in the Gnome menu that will open Slack in its own window without a location bar. > the app not exiting if i need to restart the browser, the app not being affected by extensions I install (adblockers, etc). I want to be able to modify web apps, and I want to restart all webapps when I receive a security update for Chrome. I don't think the advantages outweigh the risks for most Electron apps that also have webapps.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  We could have it all. A shared runtime, with shared security updates, and applications being spawned as "standalone", with a cmdline parameter like --master-config that would let me enable Inspector and any specified addons. Because I agree, being able to freely modify third party software is huge.
- wkirby 8y ago
  > > the app not exiting if i need to restart the browser, the app not being affected by extensions I install (adblockers, etc). > > I want to be able to modify web apps, and I want to restart all webapps when I receive a security update for Chrome. You guys are sort of talking past each other here --- you both have something different that you want, and since Slack runs in both a standalone Electron shell and in the browser, it's giving you both what you asked for. Why dismiss the things he likes in a standalone app as not addressing your needs for an in-browser webapp?
  - lern_too_spel 8y ago
    I'm saying that the webapp also gives him what he wants but without some serious disadvantages. If you really don't want to run any extensions on Slack, you can do that too: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/extension-automation/ghopjgdkodchjclkkfdekhjfomdbakkb https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/extension-automati...
tambourine_man 8y ago
>Currently, people hate electron because shipping and running duplicate browsers is heavy-handed, insecure, and silly. And because they are bad OS citizens. You can’t use the system’s spell checking, dictionary, undo/redo, shortcuts, abbreviations, better text rendering… the list goes on and on. If it is a webapp, I can at least use Safari, which has none of those issues.
- jeff18 8y ago
  FWIW, Electron actually supports all of those things, except the text rendering engine.
  - tambourine_man 8y ago
    Really? Never seen a well behaved textarea or input[text] in Chrome. Can you elaborate on how this could be done?
    - jeff18 8y ago
      Works for me out of the box! spellchekc too. https://www.dropbox.com/s/348mh6wlmuayflp/Screenshot%202018-06-21%2017.36.21.png?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/348mh6wlmuayflp/Screenshot%202018-...
      - tambourine_man 8y ago
        You're right… kind of. For some reason it's not available throught contextual menu, like other apps, only in the Edit menu. https://imgur.com/a/2FDNDu4 https://imgur.com/a/2FDNDu4 And if the App forgets to expose that option (Skype, for instance), tough noogies.
zacmps 8y ago
chrome --app="https://www.google.com" https://www.google.com" Gives you all of that, shame it's not better known.
- scrollaway 8y ago
  Yeah I mean, Chrome tried to do it with Chrome Apps. It's older than Chrome, too. Firefox did it back in the days using a technology called "Prism": https://wiki.mozilla.org/Prism https://wiki.mozilla.org/Prism It just.. it's not taking. It's not a valid way, right now, of telling people "Here's your native electron-like app". Why? It's hard to tell where the limits are.

josteink 8y ago

> I would love to have the browser be a local "application server" on the desktop Back in the days we called that a WebView. And when MS made one with MSIE and used that in Windows, we sent the EU after them. How times change, eh?

eddieroger 8y ago
Except Electron won't do it using their market share to take out Netscape.
- josteink 8y ago
  No. That’s Chrome’s doing to Firefox. Big difference, sure.
reitanqild 8y ago
> And when MS made one with MSIE and used that in Windows, we sent the EU after them. > How times change, eh? That was a very short story. Mine is a bit longer and includes MS intentionally crippling HTML if their servers sniffed Opera headers. Edit: Google employees here, -please remind your bosses and colleagues what happened last someone abused their position to dominate the browser market.
- josefx 8y ago
  > please remind your bosses and colleagues what happened last someone abused their position to dominate the browser market. They got rich(er) and crippled competition for years to come?
  - reitanqild 8y ago
    Well they also got a fine so big [0] that they changed their ways somewhat[1] and still make money. But then again, I know nothing. This is just a feeling I have. [0]: Yes, and I think they also got the message loud and clear that this would just be a start unless they started behaving [1]: not saying they are saints yet, but as a nix user out in the trenches I very much prefer the current Microsoft.
coldtea 8y ago
>And when MS made one with MSIE and used that in Windows, we sent the EU after them. That was because they were a monopoly (among several other reasons, such as "bundling", threatening OEMs and so on). Not because they offered webviews (which was totally irrelevant).
- josteink 8y ago
  Iirc the embedding in the OS (aka the webview) was one of the major complaints.
  - hshehehjdjdjd 8y ago
    But ... chromium is not embedded in the OS?
scrollaway 8y ago
Yes, I had webview in mind when I was writing that comment. But obviously WebViews aren't good enough. We're talking about enough functionality to own a multi-window app. Edit: What I more specifically had in mind was Firefox Prism, from circa 2007. https://wiki.mozilla.org/Prism https://wiki.mozilla.org/Prism Why this stuff didn't take / isn't more popular now, I don't really know.
tambourine_man 8y ago
With the exception of IE/EDGE, all major browsers use an open source rendering engine. It’s a lot easier to argue that a web browser is an essencial part of an OS this way.

lern_too_spel 8y ago

> A native notification bar icon, shortcuts in the menus/app launchers This already works out of the box. "More tools -> Create shortcut..." in Chrome will create a launcher in the Gnome menu that will open Slack in its own window without a location bar. > the app not exiting if i need to restart the browser, the app not being affected by extensions I install (adblockers, etc). I want to be able to modify web apps, and I want to restart all webapps when I receive a security update for Chrome. I don't think the advantages outweigh the risks for most Electron apps that also have webapps.

TeMPOraL 8y ago
We could have it all. A shared runtime, with shared security updates, and applications being spawned as "standalone", with a cmdline parameter like --master-config that would let me enable Inspector and any specified addons. Because I agree, being able to freely modify third party software is huge.
wkirby 8y ago
> > the app not exiting if i need to restart the browser, the app not being affected by extensions I install (adblockers, etc). > > I want to be able to modify web apps, and I want to restart all webapps when I receive a security update for Chrome. You guys are sort of talking past each other here --- you both have something different that you want, and since Slack runs in both a standalone Electron shell and in the browser, it's giving you both what you asked for. Why dismiss the things he likes in a standalone app as not addressing your needs for an in-browser webapp?
- lern_too_spel 8y ago
  I'm saying that the webapp also gives him what he wants but without some serious disadvantages. If you really don't want to run any extensions on Slack, you can do that too: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/extension-automation/ghopjgdkodchjclkkfdekhjfomdbakkb https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/extension-automati...

tambourine_man 8y ago

>Currently, people hate electron because shipping and running duplicate browsers is heavy-handed, insecure, and silly. And because they are bad OS citizens. You can’t use the system’s spell checking, dictionary, undo/redo, shortcuts, abbreviations, better text rendering… the list goes on and on. If it is a webapp, I can at least use Safari, which has none of those issues.

jeff18 8y ago
FWIW, Electron actually supports all of those things, except the text rendering engine.
- tambourine_man 8y ago
  Really? Never seen a well behaved textarea or input[text] in Chrome. Can you elaborate on how this could be done?
  - jeff18 8y ago
    Works for me out of the box! spellchekc too. https://www.dropbox.com/s/348mh6wlmuayflp/Screenshot%202018-06-21%2017.36.21.png?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/348mh6wlmuayflp/Screenshot%202018-...
    - tambourine_man 8y ago
      You're right… kind of. For some reason it's not available throught contextual menu, like other apps, only in the Edit menu. https://imgur.com/a/2FDNDu4 https://imgur.com/a/2FDNDu4 And if the App forgets to expose that option (Skype, for instance), tough noogies.

zacmps 8y ago

chrome --app="https://www.google.com" https://www.google.com" Gives you all of that, shame it's not better known.

scrollaway 8y ago
Yeah I mean, Chrome tried to do it with Chrome Apps. It's older than Chrome, too. Firefox did it back in the days using a technology called "Prism": https://wiki.mozilla.org/Prism https://wiki.mozilla.org/Prism It just.. it's not taking. It's not a valid way, right now, of telling people "Here's your native electron-like app". Why? It's hard to tell where the limits are.