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I paid out $100,000 to pay off my wife & my own student loan debt early. Student loan debt can not be discharged by bankruptcy; it's always waiting for you. Th

I paid out $100,000 to pay off my wife & my own student loan debt early. Student loan debt can not be discharged by bankruptcy; it's always waiting for you. This implies several things immediately: - You have to take a job which can make payments on the debt. - You have to choose stable jobs which will not suddenly fold under you. There's also a somewhat hard to define aspect to the problem where you have to ensure that your local system is fiscally stable. Anyway, non-1% Americans graduated from college not taking risks in their first 10 years out? Totally predictable, just from the debt perspective. Then, at 32, 34, a lot of people are married and/or have a kid on the way. Welp, there's your high levels of downside again. Add in to all this the fact that housing prices are effectively tethered to the availability of cash provided to the "highly paid" market (inequality increases).... ... so if your startup fails, you'll lose your place to live, and remote jobs are very rare, so you're in trouble in the big city with now-unaffordable costs of living. the solution, in part, has a simple policy component: declare jubilee on all federally-originated student debt; free college for all students who maintain adequate gpas, no more federal loans. impose cost controls on universities that take federal money. that effectively derisks an entire generation and opens up new options. housing costs are less directly tractable and more politically problematic: the effective solution is to federally strip single family zoning from all land, and mandating density minimums and other supply-increasing zoning. (I assure you, the housing market is an interstate commerce system. :) ). But that only staunches the wound, it doesn't bring down housing prices into line with the median American's income. Wait, this is about startups? Ha! No. That's a third order consequence caused by increasing early-career & mid-career risk, which in turn is increased by the planning & zoning codes and governmental defunding of education.

SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
And once (or while) the student loan debt clears up you then get a mortgage and start a family - both of which now make you crave a stable paycheck while you get a hang of this house ownership thing and to take care of your loved ones. It's hard to take that gamble when you feel like the world is riding on your shoulders.
- leesalminen 8y ago
  If feeling like the world is riding on your shoulders changes your risk-adversity quotient maybe founding a startup isn't such a great idea. Instead of 1 mortgage (yours), you're now responsible for 20 (your employees').
  - tres 8y ago
    Entering into a business relationship with an employee bears its own responsibilities; however, all parties know that it's a business relationship. Everyone understands the limits of the responsibilities associated with that relationship & employees always have another employer they can go to if need be. The same can't be said for a family.
    - leesalminen 8y ago
      Business owners seem to approach their responsibilities with varying levels of seriousness. I try to maintain work-life balance but I also try to treat both family and my business as equally important. If my company fails, I can go get a job too. Changing jobs can be painful for a family, founder or employee.
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
    Totally. If you already feel like you're in a space where everything is riding on you, it's not exactly appealing to expand that responsibility. If you felt freer, you may be willing to take on that burden initially.
jeffreyrogers 8y ago
I believe student loans can be written off after 25 years. Not sure the exact details. I know med school loans can be paid off based on income and if your income is low enough (almost never happens) you don't have to pay anything. I'd nitpick a few things, but I think overall your points are valid. However, I would say a bigger cause is the replacement of small firms with larger ones. As the US has shifted more to a service economy larger firms have better economies of scale so it's harder to compete as a small firm. Plus, the pace of technological innovation is slowing so there are fewer opportunities to hitch your cart to some emerging technology. Also, I believe their definition of startup is not what most people on HN think of when it comes to startups. It just means newly formed businesses, the vast majority of which are small, non-VC funded businesses.
- pnathan 8y ago
  > I believe student loans can be written off after 25 years. Not sure the exact details. I know med school loans can be paid off based on income and if your income is low enough (almost never happens) you don't have to pay anything. I would frankly rather not have had 25 years of a ticking debt hanging over my head. I'd be almost 50. Maybe some people can see that far into the future and are comfortable with it, but I judged it an unacceptable risk. Re the economies of scale, I don't think you're wrong per se, but third order effects have a lot of contributing causes. > Also, I believe their definition of startup is not what most people on HN think of when it comes to startups. It just means newly formed businesses, the vast majority of which are small, non-VC funded businesses. Ah, the ones where you submit a business plan and get a bank loan that you have to pay back. ;-) IMO, that's riskier than VC work; you walk away with a fat pile of debt if the biz fails before a fully formed corporate veil is established. Recall that sole owners don't have veils, as they personally sign for the debt; after a certain point of size that doesn't happen. The ability of the median person to survive if their venture explodes is, to me, the critical point in founding a venture. There's probably a very useful economic history of small biz/startup failure for the past 200 years. I wonder if it's been written yet!
- dv_dt 8y ago
  Small firms have always gone out of business or grown, or been bought up, its their creation rate that has dropped off causing the ration of small/large to change.
madengr 8y ago
"declare jubilee on all federally-originated student debt" So who pays for it all? I didn't use student loans, so can I have a mortgage jubilee?
- knuththetruth 8y ago
  No, they only give those to banks when they destroy the economy and steal a bunch of people’s houses.
  - rohitb91 8y ago
    After they actively pushed people in to houses with little and even no income and the sharks that targeted minorities with little understanding of contractual law. And only the taxpayers and the global market felt the consequence.
- pnathan 8y ago
  Personally, I would cut the military budget to ensure we have an educated society. It benefits us all in society.
  - knuththetruth 8y ago
    If I remember correctly, you could make public universities in the US free by simply auditing and reigning in wasteful expenditures by the US military. https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/pentagon-buries-evidence-of-125-billion-in-bureaucratic-waste/2016/12/05/e0668c76-9af6-11e6-a0ed-ab0774c1eaa5_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.764ba8e002b7 https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/pentagon-burie...
    - pnathan 8y ago
      I've heard that too. And reading stories by the enlisted about the waste and inefficiency in the military make me groan as a citizen and a taxpayer. They don't like the waste, the bipartisan consensus in congress doesn't like the waste, this should be fixable.
dv_dt 8y ago
Add to that healthcare costs in the US are huge too, adding onto the negative pressure for startups.
- pnathan 8y ago
  Oh yes, that! This is much worse if you actually have to address health issues! I was considering the best case median-paid person and their calculations! If you have real health issues in your family, your best bet IMO is to work your tail off and be a salaryperson at a longer-lived Fortune 500, as those tend to have good health insurance. The family gets to see a doctor without ya'll going bankrupt - also, it often pays well.
  - ModernMech 8y ago
    Interesting that in America, in order to get life saving healthcare you have to sell your life to corporate America. Work for big business or death and financial ruin await. That's not an exaggeration.
    - pnathan 8y ago
      I would nuance that somewhat: if you have a Condition, you pretty much need to work for The Man, or life's gonna be pretty rough. If you're basically healthy..... you'll probably be fine.
- aksss 8y ago
  Wait, entrepreneurs have healthcare costs? News to this entrepreneur. Healthcare is completely unaffordable if you start a new business and find yourself on the individual market making even a modest profit (to disqualify you for subsidies). There are a variety of factors that conspire against small businesses. The lack of health care is definitely one of the risks you need to be comfortable with if you're going to go out and start a business. The hope is that you can grow quickly enough (in employee count and profit) to set up a group plan before shit goes wrong health-wise.
  - 8y ago
twblalock 8y ago
What happens to the student loan system going forward? You can't declare a jubilee and then keep on giving out loans -- everyone will expect another jubilee and there will be so little confidence in the system you might as well get rid of it. Unless you have a replacement system to help people pay for college, and it is already operational, destroying the student loan system would guarantee that only rich kids get to go to college.
- pnathan 8y ago
  I said to make college free: tuition, room, and board, so long as you keep adequate grades. Stop the loan system entirely. Sorry, I must have been unclear.
  - pkaye 8y ago
    I presume then the government will pay the cost of your education? What is to stop a university from raising the cost of tuition 10x?
    - tijs 8y ago
      fixed budgets. works fairly well for most european countries like e.g. germany; https://theconversation.com/how-germany-managed-to-abolish-university-tuition-fees-32529 https://theconversation.com/how-germany-managed-to-abolish-u...
      - mrep 8y ago
        Except when they have to compete for high value professors [0]. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15600275 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15600275
    - s73v3r_ 8y ago
      What's to stop universities in countries where the government picks up the tab already from doing this?
lgregg 8y ago
I have had a hypothesis for awhile that the economy is going to see a lot more post-retirement startups. You've got a ton of Boomers who are going to be bored who are or are about to retire in the next 5 years. I was talking with my mom, she's wondering what she's going to do and I floated the idea of trying to start a business with one of her hobbies. I think she's going to do it when she retires in a few years. You've got extended lifespans incrementing up with each census, meaning people need to make money to pay for the extension to maintain a quality of life; however, most retirees have their housing locked down and the necessities paid for. I know several retirees that have done something similar, most go into a consulting role/function helping newer companies since their knowledge and experience is their #1 asset.
- pnathan 8y ago
  I would agree! I vaguely plan to shift to consulting out my experience and competence at age 60 or so, then do that on a part time basis until I topple over. No sense in vegging at home, and I expect have the time and network at that time to select roles I personally enjoy.
- noonespecial 8y ago
  My parents have reached the same conclusion. On a side note, I've had no small amount of schadenfreude watching them run head-long into the regulations they've spent the last 3 decades cramming into every nook and cranny of the economy. They thought it was funny irony when kids got visits from authorities for selling lemonade at the end of the driveway... now they've got a metaphorical truck-full of lemons, a squeezer, and a hefty reality check.
- cityhomesteader 8y ago
  > I have had a hypothesis for awhile that the economy is going to see a lot more post-retirement startups. I think you are overestimating the economic state of most retirees. Also, startups are risky. Old people do not like risk and venture capital isn't going to throw money at older people nearing the end of their life. > I floated the idea of trying to start a business with one of her hobbies. So self-employment rather than a traditional "startup". > I know several retirees that have done something similar, most go into a consulting role/function helping newer companies since their knowledge and experience is their #1 asset. So taking jobs from younger people? Don't see how good this is for society in general. You shouldn't be allowed to collect a pension/social security/etc and work. Just my opinion.
bytematic 8y ago
Also getting rid of tons of bureaucracy/administrators in universities will help drive the cost down. Maybe better spread school endowments/donations around or have some sort of donation system that doesn't focus on 1) Schools with huge endowments, 2) alloted only for business schools, and 3) go primarily to sports
merpnderp 8y ago
Just make student loans dischargeable. The market will sort it out at that point. Loans for degrees that are valuable will be granted, and loans that are for selfish degrees that produce no skills anyone else wants or cares about won't be granted. And colleges would have to start cutting costs to make their degrees more affordable. And given the mind boggling increase in tuition over the last 40 years, there's an epic amount of fat to be trimmed.
- zolthrowaway 8y ago
  I totally agree this is the root of the problem. You wouldn't be giving out 50k loans for degrees that are looking at making 30k a year. I think the big problem with this approach is that it disproportionately effects poor people. If person A studies underwater basket weaving but their parents cosign and have great credit and income, that's much less of a risk than person B who is studying engineering but has no assistance. 18 year olds have very little credit history or net worth so you are mostly looking at their parents situation. If there is a way to overcome that aspect, I would totally support the ability to discharge loans.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- risotto_groupon 8y ago
  Wait? What? You can't be serious? The market will sort "what is a worthwhile education"? Why not let the market sort out legislation? Or court cases? Or child custody? This is a pretty sad statement of your personal values if you're serious.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Why not let the market sort out legislation? We do. What do you think “money = speech” is?
    - geggam 8y ago
      Legalized Bribery
frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
>the solution, in part, has a simple policy component: declare jubilee on all federally-originated student debt Unfortunately this is a pretty terrible idea. First of all it would cost about $1.4 trillion and second it benefits the already better off in society. [1] Not only do the children of wealthy parents have disproportionally more student debt, they're also far better equipped to actually pay it off. A trillion dollar welfare plan which gives money to Sandra A. who went to Wellesley but not to Sandra B. who only has her GED doesn't sound that great. It'd be better just to spread it out evenly. [1] http://mattbruenig.com/2012/08/10/student-debt-disproportionately-burdens-the-well-off/ http://mattbruenig.com/2012/08/10/student-debt-disproportion...
- taurath 8y ago
  The kids of the better off have more debt because they can afford to take it on in the first place. Those from worse families financially are likely more avoidant of debt.
  - inetknght 8y ago
    Unless those from worse families are told constantly that the only way they can make it in life is to graduate from college.
    - taurath 8y ago
      I don't think thats the case, within the families. My experience is that parents who don't have college degrees are much less likely to financially support and/or push for college for their children. The idea that the only way to make it in life is to graduate from college is a societal view. Now you'd think that someone who didn't graduate college would see its value, but they're probably less likely to be able to help their kids financially (especially in the middle-area where the parents make too much for the kid to qualify to student aid, but not enough to comfortably afford it). Also cultural differences - conservatives are pretty unlikely to want their kids to go to a "liberalizing" college institution. "First generation" college students also go to 2-year colleges at a far higher rate, and are far less likely to go to a private college than students who's parents completed college, and were also far more likely to drop out because of economic reasons. 33% drop out within 3 years vs 14% of those with parents who went to college. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/08/students-postsecondary-education-arcs-affected-parents-college-backgrounds-study https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/08/students-post...
Casseres 8y ago
> free college for all students who maintain adequate gpas Looks like everyone is getting a diploma! Professors will would be incentivized to hand out As in order to keep their job.
ibrault 8y ago
This is kind of nitpicking a small point in your argument, but I've been in a lot of free-college discussions lately so I'm curious. Why do you think that an adequate GPA is the correct baseline for maintaining free tuition? GPA is dependent on so many extraneous factors such as a student's major or a department's grading scale that I feel like you would need a more fair metric. Is the cutoff simply a passing GPA (2.0), or something higher?
- lolsal 8y ago
  What other measure would you use to determine if education was being thoroughly and adequately transferred and learned? Space is limited in classes - a class with half of the students failing to grasp the material is of less benefit to society than a class where most of the students are grasping the material.
- zitterbewegung 8y ago
  When I went to college you would need a GPA of 3.0 to keep scholarships. This was also the norm for nearly every scholarship.
  - vageli 8y ago
    "That's how it's always been done" is kind of lacking as an argument.
- pnathan 8y ago
  My arbitrarily guesstimated number would be 2.0 on a 4.0 scale. Students who scored under that at my alma mater (U of Idaho, go go State School!) really had issues of one kind or another, whether it be health, disinterest, family, etc. Over that, yes, issues occurred, but it didn't make me sideeye and wonder if they should withdraw and save themselves their time and effort. I expect other people would adjust that number. I'd probably also cut the funding for a full-time undergrad after 6 years. That number is also debatable, and I acknowledge that one could come to different numbers with solid justifications. I also would fully fund grad student tuition, room, and board, with somewhat adjusted numbers depending on the program. Note that this isn't merit-based, but a eh, you're giving it the ole college try, we're not going to defund you, along with a low-pass filter to remove pure leech behavior. IMO, one of the big issues with massive extraneous issues hitting a student is that if you withdraw without a degree, you still have the debt, but no degree to help you pay it off. The incentive is to stick around and squeeze out the degree somehow, anyhow. Which is a perverse incentive, since profs, employers, fellow students tend to prefer people who want to be there and do well. So when you drop out early, you end off in a worse financial state than if you'd not gone to college at all (modulo whatever learning you picked up). n.b., my perspective is that education is a socially provided benefit to improve society. It should not be a market good like a house or car. We all benefit from a more educated populace (and one with less debt, too!). I recognize there are other perspectives, but I think they lead to worse systemic ends.
ManFromUranus 8y ago
>free college for all students who maintain adequate gpas, no more federal loans. impose cost controls on universities that take federal money. You could probably do all this, but then you would have to clamp down on all the freeloaders, "irregular immigrants" and other people draining the public coffers. Cutting into defense spending WILL NEVER HAPPEN so don't even suggest it. Yes it is a perfectly viable place to get all the money you could ever want, but regime change isn't free, and the US pays Israel 38 Bln a year in outright cash or arms. The money the US gifts Israel alone would likely make all your student loan debt disappear (for Citizen students with good GPA's).
learc83 8y ago
Income based repayment plans solve most of this for the 90% of student loans that are federal. You only need to pay 10% of your disposable income (income over 1.5x the federal poverty level). If you don't have an income, you won't pay anything.
araes 8y ago
Notably, if tuition slowed down (forcibly, incentivized, or through other methods) this would also alleviate the problem. Since the late 70's / early 80's, its been rising at 3-3.5% above inflation every year. Median income has basically just tracked inflation. So the relative cost has effectively more than tripled for normal folks. https://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2014/05/Income%20vs%20tutition_0.jpg https://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/i... Even if we allow people to discharge loans, we can't keep giving them the loans in the first place. Paying back school costs that in inflation adjusted terms almost quadruple what your parents paid is not feasible unless real, after inflation incomes are quadruple. Which is almost, by definition, impossible. IE, education costs really need to be flat with inflation for this system to remain stable. Right now we have behavior that looks more like speculation. Admittedly, its kind of self correcting. You have more debt. Take longer to pay it back. Work longer before a family is an option. Can afford to have less kids. Can afford to help them with college less. Or ... someone comes along with a needle and it all deflates - likely rapidly. Unfortunately, in the middle there we have an Idiocracy situation, with a whole generation of indentured servants trapped through debt bondage.

SketchySeaBeast 8y ago

And once (or while) the student loan debt clears up you then get a mortgage and start a family - both of which now make you crave a stable paycheck while you get a hang of this house ownership thing and to take care of your loved ones. It's hard to take that gamble when you feel like the world is riding on your shoulders.

leesalminen 8y ago
If feeling like the world is riding on your shoulders changes your risk-adversity quotient maybe founding a startup isn't such a great idea. Instead of 1 mortgage (yours), you're now responsible for 20 (your employees').
- tres 8y ago
  Entering into a business relationship with an employee bears its own responsibilities; however, all parties know that it's a business relationship. Everyone understands the limits of the responsibilities associated with that relationship & employees always have another employer they can go to if need be. The same can't be said for a family.
  - leesalminen 8y ago
    Business owners seem to approach their responsibilities with varying levels of seriousness. I try to maintain work-life balance but I also try to treat both family and my business as equally important. If my company fails, I can go get a job too. Changing jobs can be painful for a family, founder or employee.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
  Totally. If you already feel like you're in a space where everything is riding on you, it's not exactly appealing to expand that responsibility. If you felt freer, you may be willing to take on that burden initially.

jeffreyrogers 8y ago

I believe student loans can be written off after 25 years. Not sure the exact details. I know med school loans can be paid off based on income and if your income is low enough (almost never happens) you don't have to pay anything. I'd nitpick a few things, but I think overall your points are valid. However, I would say a bigger cause is the replacement of small firms with larger ones. As the US has shifted more to a service economy larger firms have better economies of scale so it's harder to compete as a small firm. Plus, the pace of technological innovation is slowing so there are fewer opportunities to hitch your cart to some emerging technology. Also, I believe their definition of startup is not what most people on HN think of when it comes to startups. It just means newly formed businesses, the vast majority of which are small, non-VC funded businesses.

pnathan 8y ago
> I believe student loans can be written off after 25 years. Not sure the exact details. I know med school loans can be paid off based on income and if your income is low enough (almost never happens) you don't have to pay anything. I would frankly rather not have had 25 years of a ticking debt hanging over my head. I'd be almost 50. Maybe some people can see that far into the future and are comfortable with it, but I judged it an unacceptable risk. Re the economies of scale, I don't think you're wrong per se, but third order effects have a lot of contributing causes. > Also, I believe their definition of startup is not what most people on HN think of when it comes to startups. It just means newly formed businesses, the vast majority of which are small, non-VC funded businesses. Ah, the ones where you submit a business plan and get a bank loan that you have to pay back. ;-) IMO, that's riskier than VC work; you walk away with a fat pile of debt if the biz fails before a fully formed corporate veil is established. Recall that sole owners don't have veils, as they personally sign for the debt; after a certain point of size that doesn't happen. The ability of the median person to survive if their venture explodes is, to me, the critical point in founding a venture. There's probably a very useful economic history of small biz/startup failure for the past 200 years. I wonder if it's been written yet!
dv_dt 8y ago
Small firms have always gone out of business or grown, or been bought up, its their creation rate that has dropped off causing the ration of small/large to change.

madengr 8y ago

"declare jubilee on all federally-originated student debt" So who pays for it all? I didn't use student loans, so can I have a mortgage jubilee?

knuththetruth 8y ago
No, they only give those to banks when they destroy the economy and steal a bunch of people’s houses.
- rohitb91 8y ago
  After they actively pushed people in to houses with little and even no income and the sharks that targeted minorities with little understanding of contractual law. And only the taxpayers and the global market felt the consequence.
pnathan 8y ago
Personally, I would cut the military budget to ensure we have an educated society. It benefits us all in society.
- knuththetruth 8y ago
  If I remember correctly, you could make public universities in the US free by simply auditing and reigning in wasteful expenditures by the US military. https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/pentagon-buries-evidence-of-125-billion-in-bureaucratic-waste/2016/12/05/e0668c76-9af6-11e6-a0ed-ab0774c1eaa5_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.764ba8e002b7 https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/pentagon-burie...
  - pnathan 8y ago
    I've heard that too. And reading stories by the enlisted about the waste and inefficiency in the military make me groan as a citizen and a taxpayer. They don't like the waste, the bipartisan consensus in congress doesn't like the waste, this should be fixable.

dv_dt 8y ago

Add to that healthcare costs in the US are huge too, adding onto the negative pressure for startups.

pnathan 8y ago
Oh yes, that! This is much worse if you actually have to address health issues! I was considering the best case median-paid person and their calculations! If you have real health issues in your family, your best bet IMO is to work your tail off and be a salaryperson at a longer-lived Fortune 500, as those tend to have good health insurance. The family gets to see a doctor without ya'll going bankrupt - also, it often pays well.
- ModernMech 8y ago
  Interesting that in America, in order to get life saving healthcare you have to sell your life to corporate America. Work for big business or death and financial ruin await. That's not an exaggeration.
  - pnathan 8y ago
    I would nuance that somewhat: if you have a Condition, you pretty much need to work for The Man, or life's gonna be pretty rough. If you're basically healthy..... you'll probably be fine.
aksss 8y ago
Wait, entrepreneurs have healthcare costs? News to this entrepreneur. Healthcare is completely unaffordable if you start a new business and find yourself on the individual market making even a modest profit (to disqualify you for subsidies). There are a variety of factors that conspire against small businesses. The lack of health care is definitely one of the risks you need to be comfortable with if you're going to go out and start a business. The hope is that you can grow quickly enough (in employee count and profit) to set up a group plan before shit goes wrong health-wise.
- 8y ago

twblalock 8y ago

What happens to the student loan system going forward? You can't declare a jubilee and then keep on giving out loans -- everyone will expect another jubilee and there will be so little confidence in the system you might as well get rid of it. Unless you have a replacement system to help people pay for college, and it is already operational, destroying the student loan system would guarantee that only rich kids get to go to college.

pnathan 8y ago
I said to make college free: tuition, room, and board, so long as you keep adequate grades. Stop the loan system entirely. Sorry, I must have been unclear.
- pkaye 8y ago
  I presume then the government will pay the cost of your education? What is to stop a university from raising the cost of tuition 10x?
  - tijs 8y ago
    fixed budgets. works fairly well for most european countries like e.g. germany; https://theconversation.com/how-germany-managed-to-abolish-university-tuition-fees-32529 https://theconversation.com/how-germany-managed-to-abolish-u...
    - mrep 8y ago
      Except when they have to compete for high value professors [0]. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15600275 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15600275
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    What's to stop universities in countries where the government picks up the tab already from doing this?

lgregg 8y ago

I have had a hypothesis for awhile that the economy is going to see a lot more post-retirement startups. You've got a ton of Boomers who are going to be bored who are or are about to retire in the next 5 years. I was talking with my mom, she's wondering what she's going to do and I floated the idea of trying to start a business with one of her hobbies. I think she's going to do it when she retires in a few years. You've got extended lifespans incrementing up with each census, meaning people need to make money to pay for the extension to maintain a quality of life; however, most retirees have their housing locked down and the necessities paid for. I know several retirees that have done something similar, most go into a consulting role/function helping newer companies since their knowledge and experience is their #1 asset.

pnathan 8y ago
I would agree! I vaguely plan to shift to consulting out my experience and competence at age 60 or so, then do that on a part time basis until I topple over. No sense in vegging at home, and I expect have the time and network at that time to select roles I personally enjoy.
noonespecial 8y ago
My parents have reached the same conclusion. On a side note, I've had no small amount of schadenfreude watching them run head-long into the regulations they've spent the last 3 decades cramming into every nook and cranny of the economy. They thought it was funny irony when kids got visits from authorities for selling lemonade at the end of the driveway... now they've got a metaphorical truck-full of lemons, a squeezer, and a hefty reality check.
cityhomesteader 8y ago
> I have had a hypothesis for awhile that the economy is going to see a lot more post-retirement startups. I think you are overestimating the economic state of most retirees. Also, startups are risky. Old people do not like risk and venture capital isn't going to throw money at older people nearing the end of their life. > I floated the idea of trying to start a business with one of her hobbies. So self-employment rather than a traditional "startup". > I know several retirees that have done something similar, most go into a consulting role/function helping newer companies since their knowledge and experience is their #1 asset. So taking jobs from younger people? Don't see how good this is for society in general. You shouldn't be allowed to collect a pension/social security/etc and work. Just my opinion.

bytematic 8y ago

Also getting rid of tons of bureaucracy/administrators in universities will help drive the cost down. Maybe better spread school endowments/donations around or have some sort of donation system that doesn't focus on 1) Schools with huge endowments, 2) alloted only for business schools, and 3) go primarily to sports

merpnderp 8y ago

Just make student loans dischargeable. The market will sort it out at that point. Loans for degrees that are valuable will be granted, and loans that are for selfish degrees that produce no skills anyone else wants or cares about won't be granted. And colleges would have to start cutting costs to make their degrees more affordable. And given the mind boggling increase in tuition over the last 40 years, there's an epic amount of fat to be trimmed.

zolthrowaway 8y ago
I totally agree this is the root of the problem. You wouldn't be giving out 50k loans for degrees that are looking at making 30k a year. I think the big problem with this approach is that it disproportionately effects poor people. If person A studies underwater basket weaving but their parents cosign and have great credit and income, that's much less of a risk than person B who is studying engineering but has no assistance. 18 year olds have very little credit history or net worth so you are mostly looking at their parents situation. If there is a way to overcome that aspect, I would totally support the ability to discharge loans.
deleted 8y ago
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risotto_groupon 8y ago
Wait? What? You can't be serious? The market will sort "what is a worthwhile education"? Why not let the market sort out legislation? Or court cases? Or child custody? This is a pretty sad statement of your personal values if you're serious.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Why not let the market sort out legislation? We do. What do you think “money = speech” is?
  - geggam 8y ago
    Legalized Bribery

frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago

>the solution, in part, has a simple policy component: declare jubilee on all federally-originated student debt Unfortunately this is a pretty terrible idea. First of all it would cost about $1.4 trillion and second it benefits the already better off in society. [1] Not only do the children of wealthy parents have disproportionally more student debt, they're also far better equipped to actually pay it off. A trillion dollar welfare plan which gives money to Sandra A. who went to Wellesley but not to Sandra B. who only has her GED doesn't sound that great. It'd be better just to spread it out evenly. [1] http://mattbruenig.com/2012/08/10/student-debt-disproportionately-burdens-the-well-off/ http://mattbruenig.com/2012/08/10/student-debt-disproportion...

taurath 8y ago
The kids of the better off have more debt because they can afford to take it on in the first place. Those from worse families financially are likely more avoidant of debt.
- inetknght 8y ago
  Unless those from worse families are told constantly that the only way they can make it in life is to graduate from college.
  - taurath 8y ago
    I don't think thats the case, within the families. My experience is that parents who don't have college degrees are much less likely to financially support and/or push for college for their children. The idea that the only way to make it in life is to graduate from college is a societal view. Now you'd think that someone who didn't graduate college would see its value, but they're probably less likely to be able to help their kids financially (especially in the middle-area where the parents make too much for the kid to qualify to student aid, but not enough to comfortably afford it). Also cultural differences - conservatives are pretty unlikely to want their kids to go to a "liberalizing" college institution. "First generation" college students also go to 2-year colleges at a far higher rate, and are far less likely to go to a private college than students who's parents completed college, and were also far more likely to drop out because of economic reasons. 33% drop out within 3 years vs 14% of those with parents who went to college. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/08/students-postsecondary-education-arcs-affected-parents-college-backgrounds-study https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/08/students-post...

Casseres 8y ago

> free college for all students who maintain adequate gpas Looks like everyone is getting a diploma! Professors will would be incentivized to hand out As in order to keep their job.

ibrault 8y ago

This is kind of nitpicking a small point in your argument, but I've been in a lot of free-college discussions lately so I'm curious. Why do you think that an adequate GPA is the correct baseline for maintaining free tuition? GPA is dependent on so many extraneous factors such as a student's major or a department's grading scale that I feel like you would need a more fair metric. Is the cutoff simply a passing GPA (2.0), or something higher?

lolsal 8y ago
What other measure would you use to determine if education was being thoroughly and adequately transferred and learned? Space is limited in classes - a class with half of the students failing to grasp the material is of less benefit to society than a class where most of the students are grasping the material.
zitterbewegung 8y ago
When I went to college you would need a GPA of 3.0 to keep scholarships. This was also the norm for nearly every scholarship.
- vageli 8y ago
  "That's how it's always been done" is kind of lacking as an argument.
pnathan 8y ago
My arbitrarily guesstimated number would be 2.0 on a 4.0 scale. Students who scored under that at my alma mater (U of Idaho, go go State School!) really had issues of one kind or another, whether it be health, disinterest, family, etc. Over that, yes, issues occurred, but it didn't make me sideeye and wonder if they should withdraw and save themselves their time and effort. I expect other people would adjust that number. I'd probably also cut the funding for a full-time undergrad after 6 years. That number is also debatable, and I acknowledge that one could come to different numbers with solid justifications. I also would fully fund grad student tuition, room, and board, with somewhat adjusted numbers depending on the program. Note that this isn't merit-based, but a eh, you're giving it the ole college try, we're not going to defund you, along with a low-pass filter to remove pure leech behavior. IMO, one of the big issues with massive extraneous issues hitting a student is that if you withdraw without a degree, you still have the debt, but no degree to help you pay it off. The incentive is to stick around and squeeze out the degree somehow, anyhow. Which is a perverse incentive, since profs, employers, fellow students tend to prefer people who want to be there and do well. So when you drop out early, you end off in a worse financial state than if you'd not gone to college at all (modulo whatever learning you picked up). n.b., my perspective is that education is a socially provided benefit to improve society. It should not be a market good like a house or car. We all benefit from a more educated populace (and one with less debt, too!). I recognize there are other perspectives, but I think they lead to worse systemic ends.

ManFromUranus 8y ago

>free college for all students who maintain adequate gpas, no more federal loans. impose cost controls on universities that take federal money. You could probably do all this, but then you would have to clamp down on all the freeloaders, "irregular immigrants" and other people draining the public coffers. Cutting into defense spending WILL NEVER HAPPEN so don't even suggest it. Yes it is a perfectly viable place to get all the money you could ever want, but regime change isn't free, and the US pays Israel 38 Bln a year in outright cash or arms. The money the US gifts Israel alone would likely make all your student loan debt disappear (for Citizen students with good GPA's).

learc83 8y ago

Income based repayment plans solve most of this for the 90% of student loans that are federal. You only need to pay 10% of your disposable income (income over 1.5x the federal poverty level). If you don't have an income, you won't pay anything.

araes 8y ago

Notably, if tuition slowed down (forcibly, incentivized, or through other methods) this would also alleviate the problem. Since the late 70's / early 80's, its been rising at 3-3.5% above inflation every year. Median income has basically just tracked inflation. So the relative cost has effectively more than tripled for normal folks. https://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2014/05/Income%20vs%20tutition_0.jpg https://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/i... Even if we allow people to discharge loans, we can't keep giving them the loans in the first place. Paying back school costs that in inflation adjusted terms almost quadruple what your parents paid is not feasible unless real, after inflation incomes are quadruple. Which is almost, by definition, impossible. IE, education costs really need to be flat with inflation for this system to remain stable. Right now we have behavior that looks more like speculation. Admittedly, its kind of self correcting. You have more debt. Take longer to pay it back. Work longer before a family is an option. Can afford to have less kids. Can afford to help them with college less. Or ... someone comes along with a needle and it all deflates - likely rapidly. Unfortunately, in the middle there we have an Idiocracy situation, with a whole generation of indentured servants trapped through debt bondage.