4 ms·

Musk sounds like an unhinged conspiracy theorist and everything I hear about this company leads me to continue to wish for traditional automakers to take over t

by zzzeek 8y ago

Musk sounds like an unhinged conspiracy theorist and everything I hear about this company leads me to continue to wish for traditional automakers to take over the great innovations he's pushed forward with mass produced, fully electric and highly automated cars, and bring it up to scale in a safe and reasonable way.

jstanley 8y ago
I'd like to see someone selling a fully electric car that isn't highly automated. I don't want cruise control, lane following, stability control, automatic braking, automatic collision avoidance, anti-lock brakes, etc. I just want a brake pedal connected directly to the brakes, and a throttle pedal connected directly to an ESC, and a motor connected directly to the wheels. I don't want a computer controlling everything from behind the scenes, and I certainly don't want it "cloud-connected" or otherwise reporting to the mothership. Is that too much to ask? It should be much cheaper and easier to make than other electric cars, but nobody is doing it.
- amarant 8y ago
  Yes, it's too much to ask. I'd like to be able to walk on the streets where I live without having to worry about you hitting me with your car because your phone rang. more automation is clearly the way to go, although I'll grant that tesla hasnt exactly done a great job of it. waymo seems to be on to something though :)
- karthikb 8y ago
  Base model Leaf or Electric Smart? You’ll still get cruise control (you don’t need to use it), ABS (proven to save lives, but you can of course pump the brakes if you wish) etc.
  - Someone1234 8y ago
    I wouldn't touch the Electric Smart. It has terrible fit and finish, and the range is terrible for a fully electric cars (up to 58 miles), some plug in hybrids get almost as much fully electric range (Chevrolet Volt up to 53 miles). Granted the Electric Smart is "only" $23K, but you have to look at the overall value (e.g. depreciation, utility, battery aging). I'd prefer to pay $27K for a plug-in Prius Prime (up to 25 mile electric, then gas).
- adrinavarro 8y ago
  You don't want ABS? How about no airbag either? And doing away with safety belts as well? The bulk of the cost of producing an electric car comes from battery packs, and cost is also increased because the reduced production numbers cannot achieve higher costs saving from mass production. But all of that is changing every day towards cheaper electric cars. Pretty much all you mention is actually cheap to include, because it's shared with traditional vehicles, so it's not a major driver in car cost. Actually: if you're going to make a car expensive, then throw in some stuff that people with money (who will actually buy the vehicle) will appreciate. But you can also get a Smart Fortwo EV, a Bolloré Bluecar, a Mitsubishi i-MIEV… Which are rather basic vehicles and they're electric. The Chevy Bolt is a pretty good middle ground too, if you're in the U.S. Have you actually looked into the EV market beyond Tesla, with an actual intention of acquiring a vehicle, or are you just thinking out loud?
- Someone1234 8y ago
  You're more or less describing a golf cart. The reason computer controlled is used is because in order for electric vehicles to be efficient they need a special transmission, nobody has designed a fully mechanical transmission that compares to computer controlled (not least of all because mechanical transmissions are reactive, not proactive, meaning you're always less efficient than you could be, because that very inefficiency is what drives the transmission to shift). You'd also lose regenerative braking which is a major "win" for electric vehicles.
  - PeterisP 8y ago
    What frigging computer controlled transmission? Electric vehicles like Tesla Model S have a single-speed fixed transmission, it's pretty much two gears stuck together with no control needed or even possible.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - mikestew 8y ago
    in order for electric vehicles to be efficient they need a special transmission Electric cars don't have transmissions. At least the Leaf and Teslas don't, that I can say with certainty.
    - notlob 8y ago
      Both of your examples have transmissions, they are however a single gearing ratio (“reduction gear”). EV conversions also frequently use a multi-gear transmission, as did the original Tesla Roadster IIRC.
      - mikestew 8y ago
        Figured someone would be along shortly to point this out. Here ya go: "electric cars do not have the multi-ratio selectable transmissions that are in ICE cars." I seriously doubt anyone was confused by my succinct version, though.
- walshemj 8y ago
  Sounds like car that will kill the average driver quicker that an old school 911.
- hwillis 8y ago
  Skipping ABS and ESC is a mistake. They're essentially standard, save thousands of lives per year, and ESC is already mandatory in the EU. Having an efficient electric motor requires a computer controlling it. A standard ESC (VSI topology) is an indirect command on its own and the power depends on transient conditions. The controller doesn't know much about the motor and doesn't account for nonlinearities that cause loss under acceleration. The driving experience is the same as a subway train. To run a motor at maximum efficiency under all load conditions you need a computer in the loop, running vector/field-oriented/direct-torque control or something similar. It's not an insignificant loss otherwise, particularly with induction motors. It's also a flat-out requirement for some of the best motors- the EV industry is moving towards permanent magnet assisted reluctance motors, which are ~10% efficient without computer control.
jacknews 8y ago
I think "narcissist" is the more appropriate term. He's personally promised 5k model 3s a month (on behalf of everyone working at Tesla, but let's face it I'm sure in his mind he is Tesla), he's personally now living at the factory in order to "ensure it happens". And so if they can't actually deliver, it's on him. Therefore, start blaming saboteurs, dark forces of established rivals, and so on, because his out-sized ego can't possibly suffer a deflationary embarrassment like not achieving this rashly promised target.
- tigershark 8y ago
  the goal is 5k per week by the end of June, not 5k per month. Tesla is already well over the 5k per month.
IBM 8y ago
You don't have to wish for it, that's what's happening.

by zzzeek 8y ago

jstanley 8y ago

I'd like to see someone selling a fully electric car that isn't highly automated. I don't want cruise control, lane following, stability control, automatic braking, automatic collision avoidance, anti-lock brakes, etc. I just want a brake pedal connected directly to the brakes, and a throttle pedal connected directly to an ESC, and a motor connected directly to the wheels. I don't want a computer controlling everything from behind the scenes, and I certainly don't want it "cloud-connected" or otherwise reporting to the mothership. Is that too much to ask? It should be much cheaper and easier to make than other electric cars, but nobody is doing it.

amarant 8y ago
Yes, it's too much to ask. I'd like to be able to walk on the streets where I live without having to worry about you hitting me with your car because your phone rang. more automation is clearly the way to go, although I'll grant that tesla hasnt exactly done a great job of it. waymo seems to be on to something though :)
karthikb 8y ago
Base model Leaf or Electric Smart? You’ll still get cruise control (you don’t need to use it), ABS (proven to save lives, but you can of course pump the brakes if you wish) etc.
- Someone1234 8y ago
  I wouldn't touch the Electric Smart. It has terrible fit and finish, and the range is terrible for a fully electric cars (up to 58 miles), some plug in hybrids get almost as much fully electric range (Chevrolet Volt up to 53 miles). Granted the Electric Smart is "only" $23K, but you have to look at the overall value (e.g. depreciation, utility, battery aging). I'd prefer to pay $27K for a plug-in Prius Prime (up to 25 mile electric, then gas).
adrinavarro 8y ago
You don't want ABS? How about no airbag either? And doing away with safety belts as well? The bulk of the cost of producing an electric car comes from battery packs, and cost is also increased because the reduced production numbers cannot achieve higher costs saving from mass production. But all of that is changing every day towards cheaper electric cars. Pretty much all you mention is actually cheap to include, because it's shared with traditional vehicles, so it's not a major driver in car cost. Actually: if you're going to make a car expensive, then throw in some stuff that people with money (who will actually buy the vehicle) will appreciate. But you can also get a Smart Fortwo EV, a Bolloré Bluecar, a Mitsubishi i-MIEV… Which are rather basic vehicles and they're electric. The Chevy Bolt is a pretty good middle ground too, if you're in the U.S. Have you actually looked into the EV market beyond Tesla, with an actual intention of acquiring a vehicle, or are you just thinking out loud?
Someone1234 8y ago
You're more or less describing a golf cart. The reason computer controlled is used is because in order for electric vehicles to be efficient they need a special transmission, nobody has designed a fully mechanical transmission that compares to computer controlled (not least of all because mechanical transmissions are reactive, not proactive, meaning you're always less efficient than you could be, because that very inefficiency is what drives the transmission to shift). You'd also lose regenerative braking which is a major "win" for electric vehicles.
- PeterisP 8y ago
  What frigging computer controlled transmission? Electric vehicles like Tesla Model S have a single-speed fixed transmission, it's pretty much two gears stuck together with no control needed or even possible.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- mikestew 8y ago
  in order for electric vehicles to be efficient they need a special transmission Electric cars don't have transmissions. At least the Leaf and Teslas don't, that I can say with certainty.
  - notlob 8y ago
    Both of your examples have transmissions, they are however a single gearing ratio (“reduction gear”). EV conversions also frequently use a multi-gear transmission, as did the original Tesla Roadster IIRC.
    - mikestew 8y ago
      Figured someone would be along shortly to point this out. Here ya go: "electric cars do not have the multi-ratio selectable transmissions that are in ICE cars." I seriously doubt anyone was confused by my succinct version, though.
walshemj 8y ago
Sounds like car that will kill the average driver quicker that an old school 911.
hwillis 8y ago
Skipping ABS and ESC is a mistake. They're essentially standard, save thousands of lives per year, and ESC is already mandatory in the EU. Having an efficient electric motor requires a computer controlling it. A standard ESC (VSI topology) is an indirect command on its own and the power depends on transient conditions. The controller doesn't know much about the motor and doesn't account for nonlinearities that cause loss under acceleration. The driving experience is the same as a subway train. To run a motor at maximum efficiency under all load conditions you need a computer in the loop, running vector/field-oriented/direct-torque control or something similar. It's not an insignificant loss otherwise, particularly with induction motors. It's also a flat-out requirement for some of the best motors- the EV industry is moving towards permanent magnet assisted reluctance motors, which are ~10% efficient without computer control.

jacknews 8y ago

I think "narcissist" is the more appropriate term. He's personally promised 5k model 3s a month (on behalf of everyone working at Tesla, but let's face it I'm sure in his mind he is Tesla), he's personally now living at the factory in order to "ensure it happens". And so if they can't actually deliver, it's on him. Therefore, start blaming saboteurs, dark forces of established rivals, and so on, because his out-sized ego can't possibly suffer a deflationary embarrassment like not achieving this rashly promised target.

tigershark 8y ago
the goal is 5k per week by the end of June, not 5k per month. Tesla is already well over the 5k per month.

IBM 8y ago

You don't have to wish for it, that's what's happening.