5 ms·

What about differentiating applications and web sites? The line between the two is blurry, I know, but I would be happy if the document metaphor were divorced f

by yoz-y 8y ago

What about differentiating applications and web sites? The line between the two is blurry, I know, but I would be happy if the document metaphor were divorced from the application one.

dec0dedab0de 8y ago
Absolutely, there should be a different port for web pages than applications. Even if we started by disabling js on port 80
- krapp 8y ago
  But what about applications that link to web pages or web pages that link to applications? What valid reason is there to have an "application" and any documentation or related HTML material from the same site on different ports? Or, as some have pointed out elsewhere when this has come up, to have "applications" and "documents" use completely different protocols, languages and native clients, when both are often used together?
  - Retric 8y ago
    'Application' can be backward compatible with documents just fine. That does not mean a new category 'Document' that has reduced capability is useless. Banking websites for example don't need to be Applications and added protection for cross-site scripting etc. would be beneficial. Restrict things further and you default to supporting screen readers etc.
    - krapp 8y ago
      What definitions of "application" and "document" are being used here? Banking websites are applications in terms of their functionality - they're certainly not documents. At least not the parts where I can access and modify my account.
      - Retric 8y ago
        Client side code including third party media players etc. IMO it's a simple question 'can you do the same thing with a sheet of printed paper.' I can fill out paper forms and hand them to someone just fine. Don't forget a Check is really just a piece of paper with a form on it.
        krapp 8y ago
        So a spreadsheet running in the client with javascript or WASM would be an application, but a spreadsheet running on the backend wouldn't? I'm not trying to be overly pedantic or combative here but making a distinction between client-side and server-side code seems arbitrary. I understand it in terms of managing privilege - you can't control what someone does on a remote server, and that code isn't running on your machine, but it seems like the meaningful distinction here isn't between documents and applications but between local and remote applications.
        Retric 8y ago
        The entire point is managing privileges. Just because I type in yourdomain.com does not mean I want you to be able to start playing death metal from my speakers. What about typing yourdomain.com means I want you to break my back button? Show a popup rather than close the browser? Churn CPU cycles crypto mining or do just about anything beyond hand me a document? Display a flashing GIF? The current model is basically handing complete control over my machine to a third party that may be compromised by anyone any time I click a random link. The single greatest web innovation in the last 30 years was readability mode.
        oblio 8y ago
        > The single greatest web innovation in the last 30 years was readability mode. For you. From what I see, everyone else seems to be enjoying the dancing and singing monkeys online.
        8y ago
- skolemtotem 8y ago
  I agree, but it would be much easier if we had a new document-only port instead, since it wouldn't break most of the Internet.
- workinthehead 8y ago
  That's a complete non-starter as long as advertising pays for the web pages. Or even longer, if the replacement compensation methods require JS as well.
  - yoz-y 8y ago
    Maybe there would be less money in it, but it is possible to do advertising completely on the backend as well. You send the advertiser some targeting info, e.g.: what does the article(s) on the page talk about, what is your site about, what is an estimated profile of your readers, and the ad network gives you the ad images and text in some nice format. Yes, it does require confidence that the publisher will actually show your ad, but it was the same thing for the journals. On the web you can still track outgoing links and have the referer, so you can know the actual impact of your ads anyways.
- collinmanderson 8y ago
  how about 80 vs 443? :)
  - yoz-y 8y ago
    Well, one would like to have their document safe from snooping and modification too.

by yoz-y 8y ago

What about differentiating applications and web sites? The line between the two is blurry, I know, but I would be happy if the document metaphor were divorced from the application one.

dec0dedab0de 8y ago

Absolutely, there should be a different port for web pages than applications. Even if we started by disabling js on port 80

krapp 8y ago
But what about applications that link to web pages or web pages that link to applications? What valid reason is there to have an "application" and any documentation or related HTML material from the same site on different ports? Or, as some have pointed out elsewhere when this has come up, to have "applications" and "documents" use completely different protocols, languages and native clients, when both are often used together?
- Retric 8y ago
  'Application' can be backward compatible with documents just fine. That does not mean a new category 'Document' that has reduced capability is useless. Banking websites for example don't need to be Applications and added protection for cross-site scripting etc. would be beneficial. Restrict things further and you default to supporting screen readers etc.
  - krapp 8y ago
    What definitions of "application" and "document" are being used here? Banking websites are applications in terms of their functionality - they're certainly not documents. At least not the parts where I can access and modify my account.
    - Retric 8y ago
      Client side code including third party media players etc. IMO it's a simple question 'can you do the same thing with a sheet of printed paper.' I can fill out paper forms and hand them to someone just fine. Don't forget a Check is really just a piece of paper with a form on it.
      - krapp 8y ago
        So a spreadsheet running in the client with javascript or WASM would be an application, but a spreadsheet running on the backend wouldn't? I'm not trying to be overly pedantic or combative here but making a distinction between client-side and server-side code seems arbitrary. I understand it in terms of managing privilege - you can't control what someone does on a remote server, and that code isn't running on your machine, but it seems like the meaningful distinction here isn't between documents and applications but between local and remote applications.
        Retric 8y ago
        The entire point is managing privileges. Just because I type in yourdomain.com does not mean I want you to be able to start playing death metal from my speakers. What about typing yourdomain.com means I want you to break my back button? Show a popup rather than close the browser? Churn CPU cycles crypto mining or do just about anything beyond hand me a document? Display a flashing GIF? The current model is basically handing complete control over my machine to a third party that may be compromised by anyone any time I click a random link. The single greatest web innovation in the last 30 years was readability mode.
        oblio 8y ago
        > The single greatest web innovation in the last 30 years was readability mode. For you. From what I see, everyone else seems to be enjoying the dancing and singing monkeys online.
        8y ago
skolemtotem 8y ago
I agree, but it would be much easier if we had a new document-only port instead, since it wouldn't break most of the Internet.
workinthehead 8y ago
That's a complete non-starter as long as advertising pays for the web pages. Or even longer, if the replacement compensation methods require JS as well.
- yoz-y 8y ago
  Maybe there would be less money in it, but it is possible to do advertising completely on the backend as well. You send the advertiser some targeting info, e.g.: what does the article(s) on the page talk about, what is your site about, what is an estimated profile of your readers, and the ad network gives you the ad images and text in some nice format. Yes, it does require confidence that the publisher will actually show your ad, but it was the same thing for the journals. On the web you can still track outgoing links and have the referer, so you can know the actual impact of your ads anyways.
collinmanderson 8y ago
how about 80 vs 443? :)
- yoz-y 8y ago
  Well, one would like to have their document safe from snooping and modification too.