5 ms·

basically seemingly ethical, open, liberal and highly skilled engineers working for banks and orgs like palantir masking it all under "it's interestsing problem

basically seemingly ethical, open, liberal and highly skilled engineers working for banks and orgs like palantir masking it all under "it's interestsing problems to work on". disclaimer: i'm super susceptible to this as well..

davidgrenier 8y ago
It's odd because if Jane Street opened an office in Montreal and would have me program in OCaml, it sounds likely I'd take the job regardless of pay.
- throwawaymath 8y ago
  Jane Street isn't a bank.
- mlthoughts2018 8y ago
  It’s not as great as it sounds. You write enough system software in functional languages and you realize you just traded one set of headaches for a different but equally infuriating set, and that most headaches are sociological aspects of teams writing code, not just isolated gifted engineers separately writing perfectly idiomatic functional programming designs. Jane Street also has one of the absolute worst reputations for brutal hazing-style trivia interviews. Round after round with no official timeline given. Nonsense word problems that have no bearing to “how someone thinks.” I think it’s short-sighted when people don’t stop to ask, if a company believes it is entitled to treat candidates that way when evaluating them, what else might it mean about internal culture? While I think Jane Street is probably an above average employer, I also think people get carried away glorifying them. It’s great pay and benefits, occasionally interesting problems, and all the same headaches as working anywhere else.
  - Felz 8y ago
    > You write enough system software in functional languages and you realize you just traded one set of headaches for a different but equally infuriating set, and that most headaches are sociological aspects of teams writing code, not just isolated gifted engineers separately writing perfectly idiomatic functional programming designs. I feel like I might know what you mean, but I'd be interested if you could elaborate. (Also, isn't OCaml multiparadigmatic?)
alehul 8y ago
While I understand the sentiment towards banks as they pay you loads and it's clearly relatively dull work, can people not be genuinely interested in Palantir? If I recall correctly, Palantir had low salaries relative to Google and FB, who they compete for talent with. Their work does seem fast-paced and interesting. Additionally, while it's very much outside the HN bubble, I can imagine a lot of people would like Palantir's mission of helping law enforcement and the military, even when factoring in the loss to privacy that most HNers value more.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  "can people not be genuinely interested in Palantir?" Nobody said that immoral things can't be interesting.
  - TamDenholm 8y ago
    Sometimes the most immoral things are the most interesting, doesnt mean you have to actually follow through, but learning about it is generally very interesting. Why are Blackhat and Defcon conferences so popular? Because its super interesting.
setquk 8y ago
Yes. I worked for a defence contractor for a while. Everyone had their own justifications for remaining working there effectively supporting and building nothing defence related at all, just offensive strike based killing machines. Graded pay scales meant people's price was very low. I quit when I started putting 2+2 together.
- golergka 8y ago
  > building nothing defence related at all, just offensive strike based killing machines We must have very, very different concepts of defense.
  - mrguyorama 8y ago
    Blowing up semi-random farmers on the other side of the world, those with no retaliatory strike capability, and posing no actual threat to your country? That's not defense. "The best defense is a good offense" sounds best to those who sell the missiles
    - setquk 8y ago
      That is exactly my point.
    - grkvlt 8y ago
      What about terrorist masterminds on the other side of the world who are deniably plotting to kill and maim many hundreds of innocent US civilians, but whose plans will be thwarted if they are blown up? What if there are a couple of accidental civilian casualties when the terrorists are blown up? What if only four of the five targets are terrorists, due to an unforeseen and unavoidable mistake, and the fifth target is semi-random farmers? What if we have five targets, and we know one is a terrorist, but not which one? I mean, nobody in the Pentagon is actually just sitting there thinking 'lets go and blow up some farmers today, those drones aren't going to target themselves, you know...'
      - mrguyorama 8y ago
golergka 8y ago
Don't assume that other people have the same ethical systems as you. If I would have an opportunity to work for something like Palantir that would be helping security services of a country I feel patriotic about (not US, in my case), I would even agree to a signigicant pay cut.
projectramo 8y ago
Wait, what do you have against banks? What I mean to say is, not something you have against what a specific group within a specific bank did like manipulating libor or something. Do you have something against banks in general? Like the activity they perform in society?
dbt00 8y ago
Palantir is pretty good at optimizing against people who are just in it for the cash. I liked working at Palantir because the work was important and the company's actual ethics was very strong, contrary to the impression you might get in the press. I thought having a company with that kind of ethical beliefs doing the work that other people would be willing to do, but worse, was better for the outcome I wanted.
- hmhrex 8y ago
  Can you go into more detail or give examples of the companies ethical beliefs? This is the first I've seen someone speak differently about it, and I'm very interested to hear what you have to say.
walshemj 8y ago
I wish these "highly skilled engineers " had been employed by the TSB or Santander in the UK. The TSB had a Charlie Fox migration to a new banking system written by a Spanish bank.

davidgrenier 8y ago

It's odd because if Jane Street opened an office in Montreal and would have me program in OCaml, it sounds likely I'd take the job regardless of pay.

throwawaymath 8y ago
Jane Street isn't a bank.
mlthoughts2018 8y ago
It’s not as great as it sounds. You write enough system software in functional languages and you realize you just traded one set of headaches for a different but equally infuriating set, and that most headaches are sociological aspects of teams writing code, not just isolated gifted engineers separately writing perfectly idiomatic functional programming designs. Jane Street also has one of the absolute worst reputations for brutal hazing-style trivia interviews. Round after round with no official timeline given. Nonsense word problems that have no bearing to “how someone thinks.” I think it’s short-sighted when people don’t stop to ask, if a company believes it is entitled to treat candidates that way when evaluating them, what else might it mean about internal culture? While I think Jane Street is probably an above average employer, I also think people get carried away glorifying them. It’s great pay and benefits, occasionally interesting problems, and all the same headaches as working anywhere else.
- Felz 8y ago
  > You write enough system software in functional languages and you realize you just traded one set of headaches for a different but equally infuriating set, and that most headaches are sociological aspects of teams writing code, not just isolated gifted engineers separately writing perfectly idiomatic functional programming designs. I feel like I might know what you mean, but I'd be interested if you could elaborate. (Also, isn't OCaml multiparadigmatic?)

alehul 8y ago

While I understand the sentiment towards banks as they pay you loads and it's clearly relatively dull work, can people not be genuinely interested in Palantir? If I recall correctly, Palantir had low salaries relative to Google and FB, who they compete for talent with. Their work does seem fast-paced and interesting. Additionally, while it's very much outside the HN bubble, I can imagine a lot of people would like Palantir's mission of helping law enforcement and the military, even when factoring in the loss to privacy that most HNers value more.

s73v3r_ 8y ago
"can people not be genuinely interested in Palantir?" Nobody said that immoral things can't be interesting.
- TamDenholm 8y ago
  Sometimes the most immoral things are the most interesting, doesnt mean you have to actually follow through, but learning about it is generally very interesting. Why are Blackhat and Defcon conferences so popular? Because its super interesting.

setquk 8y ago

Yes. I worked for a defence contractor for a while. Everyone had their own justifications for remaining working there effectively supporting and building nothing defence related at all, just offensive strike based killing machines. Graded pay scales meant people's price was very low. I quit when I started putting 2+2 together.

golergka 8y ago
> building nothing defence related at all, just offensive strike based killing machines We must have very, very different concepts of defense.
- mrguyorama 8y ago
  Blowing up semi-random farmers on the other side of the world, those with no retaliatory strike capability, and posing no actual threat to your country? That's not defense. "The best defense is a good offense" sounds best to those who sell the missiles
  - setquk 8y ago
    That is exactly my point.
  - grkvlt 8y ago
    What about terrorist masterminds on the other side of the world who are deniably plotting to kill and maim many hundreds of innocent US civilians, but whose plans will be thwarted if they are blown up? What if there are a couple of accidental civilian casualties when the terrorists are blown up? What if only four of the five targets are terrorists, due to an unforeseen and unavoidable mistake, and the fifth target is semi-random farmers? What if we have five targets, and we know one is a terrorist, but not which one? I mean, nobody in the Pentagon is actually just sitting there thinking 'lets go and blow up some farmers today, those drones aren't going to target themselves, you know...'
    - mrguyorama 8y ago

golergka 8y ago

Don't assume that other people have the same ethical systems as you. If I would have an opportunity to work for something like Palantir that would be helping security services of a country I feel patriotic about (not US, in my case), I would even agree to a signigicant pay cut.

projectramo 8y ago

Wait, what do you have against banks? What I mean to say is, not something you have against what a specific group within a specific bank did like manipulating libor or something. Do you have something against banks in general? Like the activity they perform in society?

dbt00 8y ago

Palantir is pretty good at optimizing against people who are just in it for the cash. I liked working at Palantir because the work was important and the company's actual ethics was very strong, contrary to the impression you might get in the press. I thought having a company with that kind of ethical beliefs doing the work that other people would be willing to do, but worse, was better for the outcome I wanted.

hmhrex 8y ago
Can you go into more detail or give examples of the companies ethical beliefs? This is the first I've seen someone speak differently about it, and I'm very interested to hear what you have to say.

walshemj 8y ago

I wish these "highly skilled engineers " had been employed by the TSB or Santander in the UK. The TSB had a Charlie Fox migration to a new banking system written by a Spanish bank.