5 ms·

> Cool. Firefox already does, and I can also use it on Linux and Mac. But Chrome doesn't and I don't use Linux or Mac, but if I were primarily using a Mac, I w

> Cool. Firefox already does, and I can also use it on Linux and Mac. But Chrome doesn't and I don't use Linux or Mac, but if I were primarily using a Mac, I would be using Safari. And If I were primarily using ChromeOS, I would be using Chrome. > I have no way to verify exactly what Microsoft sends to their servers (and their description is incomplete and out of date, if you care to trust it). https://www.windowscentral.com/how-view-and-manage-diagnostic-data-windows-10-april-2018-update https://www.windowscentral.com/how-view-and-manage-diagnosti... > The upgrade-to-windows-10 dark patterns are what you should consider when you think "windows control & privacy". How is this a dark pattern? Windows 7 and 8 also have telemetry, but they don't let you view it as conveniently as in Windows 10. Also the OS itself supports more privacy control against 3rd party apps, which should be the biggest concern. > Not in my experience of Edge vs Firefox, unless things have changed very dramatically in the last few months. Firefox is among the most resource heavy, on both Windows and Mac OS. > In my biased sample of the world, PCs have gone back to being work devices, and everything else is being done on the phone, with cloud sync bridging the gaps. I know a few people who bought a 2-in-1 but no one uses them except as a laptop except on very very rare occasions. I do all my work on a Surface Pro 2-in-1, more than 50% of the time in tablet mode. I also keep a close eye on ChromeOS and iPads, but unless they support most of my software and use-cases, I see no reason to switch from Windows anytime soon.

beagle3 8y ago
> How is this a dark pattern? Windows 7 and 8 also have telemetry, but they don't let you view it as conveniently as in Windows 10. Seriously? Were you not a windows user three years ago when it started? E.g. from [0] "The most famous example of digital bait and switch was Microsoft’s misguided approach to getting people to upgrade their computers to Windows 10." Windows 7 and 8 are now just as bad, I do not in any way recommend using them if you value your privacy -- but at the very least, it's possible to turn off all telemetry, or at least it used to be possible when I last allowed updates on my Win7 (now it's firewalled off the world), by avoiding/removing specific updates. And according to the link you provided, "Although you can't completely prevent Microsoft from collecting diagnostic data, ...". Thanks, microsoft! but no thanks, even if you let me view what you are sending 3 years after you started snooping on me. How exactly does the OS support "privacy controls" against 3rd party apps? Do you remember that its default setup was sharing your WiFi passwords with all of your facebook acquaintances? > I do all my work on a Surface Pro 2-in-1, more than 50% of the time in tablet mode. I also keep a close eye on ChromeOS and iPads, but unless they support most of my software and use-cases, I see no reason to switch from Windows anytime soon. As I said, according to my obviously biased sample, you are a niche market. YMMV. [0] https://darkpatterns.org/types-of-dark-pattern/bait-and-switch https://darkpatterns.org/types-of-dark-pattern/bait-and-swit...
- NiveaGeForce 8y ago
  > The most famous example of digital bait and switch was Microsoft’s misguided approach to getting people to upgrade their computers to Windows 10." They got a major upgrade for free with major improvements accross the board, they should be happy. > And according to the link you provided, "Although you can't completely prevent Microsoft from collecting diagnostic data, ...". Thanks, microsoft! but no thanks, even if you let me view what you are sending 3 years after you started snooping on me. The basic telemetry is just harmless diagnostic data that's on every modern mainstream OS. MS isn't snooping on you. > How exactly does the OS support "privacy controls" against 3rd party apps? https://pixelprivacy.com/resources/windows-privacy-settings/ https://pixelprivacy.com/resources/windows-privacy-settings/ And even more controls have been added with the recent Spring Update. > Do you remember that its default setup was sharing your WiFi passwords with all of your facebook acquaintances? Nonsense, this wasn't the default.
  - beagle3 8y ago
    I don't think this discussion is worth continuing as our basic definitions of decency, privacy, control and discourse are so far apart that it makes no sense. You ask "how is this a dark pattern", I give citation and reference, and your response is "they should be happy?" Seriously? > The basic telemetry is just harmless diagnostic data that's on every modern mainstream OS. MS isn't snooping on you. The only modern mainstream OS in which there is no way to turn it off is Windows 10; you can on Android, you can on MacOS, it doesn't even exist on Linux. Let me decide what's harmless and what isn't, and which updates I want and which I do not. MS is snooping on me, and its worth it a lot to them or they wouldn't be so adamant about doing it. > https://pixelprivacy.com/resources/windows-privacy-settings/ https://pixelprivacy.com/resources/windows-privacy-settings/ Did you actually read what you link to? This does not apply to desktop apps. Which are, I guess, 99% of the apps people use out there? Maybe only 95% by now. > what are you talking about? https://gizmodo.com/why-the-hell-is-windows-10-sharing-my-wi-fi-passwords-1719900675 https://gizmodo.com/why-the-hell-is-windows-10-sharing-my-wi... Based on your previous replies, I anticipate an answer of "but they're your contacts, you probably wanted to do that, you should be happy". So, pre-emptively - no. I do not want my passwords shared by default with anyone. GDPR encodes in law the fact that everything like that must be opt-in, including telemetry and stuff. Unfortunately, it only applies to websites and not to the operating system. But it should.

beagle3 8y ago

> How is this a dark pattern? Windows 7 and 8 also have telemetry, but they don't let you view it as conveniently as in Windows 10. Seriously? Were you not a windows user three years ago when it started? E.g. from [0] "The most famous example of digital bait and switch was Microsoft’s misguided approach to getting people to upgrade their computers to Windows 10." Windows 7 and 8 are now just as bad, I do not in any way recommend using them if you value your privacy -- but at the very least, it's possible to turn off all telemetry, or at least it used to be possible when I last allowed updates on my Win7 (now it's firewalled off the world), by avoiding/removing specific updates. And according to the link you provided, "Although you can't completely prevent Microsoft from collecting diagnostic data, ...". Thanks, microsoft! but no thanks, even if you let me view what you are sending 3 years after you started snooping on me. How exactly does the OS support "privacy controls" against 3rd party apps? Do you remember that its default setup was sharing your WiFi passwords with all of your facebook acquaintances? > I do all my work on a Surface Pro 2-in-1, more than 50% of the time in tablet mode. I also keep a close eye on ChromeOS and iPads, but unless they support most of my software and use-cases, I see no reason to switch from Windows anytime soon. As I said, according to my obviously biased sample, you are a niche market. YMMV. [0] https://darkpatterns.org/types-of-dark-pattern/bait-and-switch https://darkpatterns.org/types-of-dark-pattern/bait-and-swit...

NiveaGeForce 8y ago
> The most famous example of digital bait and switch was Microsoft’s misguided approach to getting people to upgrade their computers to Windows 10." They got a major upgrade for free with major improvements accross the board, they should be happy. > And according to the link you provided, "Although you can't completely prevent Microsoft from collecting diagnostic data, ...". Thanks, microsoft! but no thanks, even if you let me view what you are sending 3 years after you started snooping on me. The basic telemetry is just harmless diagnostic data that's on every modern mainstream OS. MS isn't snooping on you. > How exactly does the OS support "privacy controls" against 3rd party apps? https://pixelprivacy.com/resources/windows-privacy-settings/ https://pixelprivacy.com/resources/windows-privacy-settings/ And even more controls have been added with the recent Spring Update. > Do you remember that its default setup was sharing your WiFi passwords with all of your facebook acquaintances? Nonsense, this wasn't the default.
- beagle3 8y ago
  I don't think this discussion is worth continuing as our basic definitions of decency, privacy, control and discourse are so far apart that it makes no sense. You ask "how is this a dark pattern", I give citation and reference, and your response is "they should be happy?" Seriously? > The basic telemetry is just harmless diagnostic data that's on every modern mainstream OS. MS isn't snooping on you. The only modern mainstream OS in which there is no way to turn it off is Windows 10; you can on Android, you can on MacOS, it doesn't even exist on Linux. Let me decide what's harmless and what isn't, and which updates I want and which I do not. MS is snooping on me, and its worth it a lot to them or they wouldn't be so adamant about doing it. > https://pixelprivacy.com/resources/windows-privacy-settings/ https://pixelprivacy.com/resources/windows-privacy-settings/ Did you actually read what you link to? This does not apply to desktop apps. Which are, I guess, 99% of the apps people use out there? Maybe only 95% by now. > what are you talking about? https://gizmodo.com/why-the-hell-is-windows-10-sharing-my-wi-fi-passwords-1719900675 https://gizmodo.com/why-the-hell-is-windows-10-sharing-my-wi... Based on your previous replies, I anticipate an answer of "but they're your contacts, you probably wanted to do that, you should be happy". So, pre-emptively - no. I do not want my passwords shared by default with anyone. GDPR encodes in law the fact that everything like that must be opt-in, including telemetry and stuff. Unfortunately, it only applies to websites and not to the operating system. But it should.