4 ms·

Perhaps in more honour-bound cultures?

mikekchar 8y ago
In my fairly brief working life in Japan (5 years at a school), it's not uncommon to do things without permission out of respect for your supervisor. That seems strange, but if you know that you must do something, but that your supervisor must say "no", then doing it helps the supervisor save face. They can yell at you publicly for doing the"wrong thing" and then nobody can criticise them. You've been yelled at and if you look sorry (it helps to cry a little bit), then everybody will forget about it and nobody will blame you after that. Weird dances like that are one of the reasons why it's difficult for foreigners to fit in :-)
- hueving 8y ago
  >Weird dances like that are one of the reasons why it's difficult for foreigners to fit in :-) Western cultures have them too but they are so ingrained you don't notice them. This video highlights some of the more interesting ones (e.g. refusing to accept an apology being offensive): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfO9gL28pAs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfO9gL28pAs
  - mmt 8y ago
    > This video highlights some of the more interesting ones (e.g. refusing to accept an apology being offensive) I didn't catch that. He only offered a somewhat contrived example of it being rude to "take back" an apology (which is, of course, not a thing) after being told it "wasn't owed". His thesis was, AFAICT, that this is an example of empty gestures, that we don't really mean it. However, that falls flat with the apology example. An apology that is actually sincere isn't something that can be taken back, so it could only be empty if it were insincere, and in his anecdote, he did not even imply insincincerity. He talks about the words not making sense when analyzes, which I assume is in reference to the fact that "you don't owe me an apology" sounds like a rejection of the apology, but, it isn't. If it's truthful and can be interpreted literally, then no offense was taken in the first place. If it's untruthful, then offense was taken but the apology was accepted (and presumably the insincerety was a lie told to spare further bad feelings). Either way, no offense remained on the part of the apology recipient. None of that was empty gesture, and there was only one opportunity for lying to spare someone's feelings (though this was not called out in the video). The rest was about Japan and the old Soviet bloc. I think you need to come up with a better example of a "weird dance" in Western culture, preferably with more observers than just the (usually two) participants.
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    Yeah, that's very true. It's an interesting talk as well. One of the examples is highly codified in Japan. If you offer someone something, they must refuse. Then you must offer it again. Then they must accept it. Any variation on that leads to one of the parties being really upset :-). One of the cool things about this is that regifting is completely accepted in Japan. Because you must accept what's being offered, it is considered normal to make a gift of it to someone else if you don't actually want it. This is one of the things that I trip over often. Quite frequently if someone offers me some food, I'll think, "Oh I have a lot of food in the house. I can't eat that." But you have to be thinking, "Who can I give that to". It's weird, but I also like it because people are constantly giving gifts (to the point where it's rare that I don't receive something almost ever week).
- dnautics 8y ago
  Isn't doing this very much a thing in the US as well?

In my fairly brief working life in Japan (5 years at a school), it's not uncommon to do things without permission out of respect for your supervisor. That seems strange, but if you know that you must do something, but that your supervisor must say "no", then doing it helps the supervisor save face. They can yell at you publicly for doing the"wrong thing" and then nobody can criticise them. You've been yelled at and if you look sorry (it helps to cry a little bit), then everybody will forget about it and nobody will blame you after that. Weird dances like that are one of the reasons why it's difficult for foreigners to fit in :-)

hueving 8y ago
>Weird dances like that are one of the reasons why it's difficult for foreigners to fit in :-) Western cultures have them too but they are so ingrained you don't notice them. This video highlights some of the more interesting ones (e.g. refusing to accept an apology being offensive): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfO9gL28pAs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfO9gL28pAs
- mmt 8y ago
  > This video highlights some of the more interesting ones (e.g. refusing to accept an apology being offensive) I didn't catch that. He only offered a somewhat contrived example of it being rude to "take back" an apology (which is, of course, not a thing) after being told it "wasn't owed". His thesis was, AFAICT, that this is an example of empty gestures, that we don't really mean it. However, that falls flat with the apology example. An apology that is actually sincere isn't something that can be taken back, so it could only be empty if it were insincere, and in his anecdote, he did not even imply insincincerity. He talks about the words not making sense when analyzes, which I assume is in reference to the fact that "you don't owe me an apology" sounds like a rejection of the apology, but, it isn't. If it's truthful and can be interpreted literally, then no offense was taken in the first place. If it's untruthful, then offense was taken but the apology was accepted (and presumably the insincerety was a lie told to spare further bad feelings). Either way, no offense remained on the part of the apology recipient. None of that was empty gesture, and there was only one opportunity for lying to spare someone's feelings (though this was not called out in the video). The rest was about Japan and the old Soviet bloc. I think you need to come up with a better example of a "weird dance" in Western culture, preferably with more observers than just the (usually two) participants.
- mikekchar 8y ago
  Yeah, that's very true. It's an interesting talk as well. One of the examples is highly codified in Japan. If you offer someone something, they must refuse. Then you must offer it again. Then they must accept it. Any variation on that leads to one of the parties being really upset :-). One of the cool things about this is that regifting is completely accepted in Japan. Because you must accept what's being offered, it is considered normal to make a gift of it to someone else if you don't actually want it. This is one of the things that I trip over often. Quite frequently if someone offers me some food, I'll think, "Oh I have a lot of food in the house. I can't eat that." But you have to be thinking, "Who can I give that to". It's weird, but I also like it because people are constantly giving gifts (to the point where it's rare that I don't receive something almost ever week).
dnautics 8y ago
Isn't doing this very much a thing in the US as well?