8 ms·

It's also easier to give forgiveness than permission, especially in an institutional context. Forgiveness after the fact doesn't imply approval of the act the w

by majos 8y ago

It's also easier to give forgiveness than permission, especially in an institutional context. Forgiveness after the fact doesn't imply approval of the act the way permission beforehand does.

mieseratte 8y ago
That's a very good point, and for a Western (American) culture in which the ends frequently justify the means (success vs. failure) this rings true. Which makes me wonder, are there cultures wherein permission is easy, but forgiveness is not?
- ValleyOfTheMtns 8y ago
  Perhaps in more honour-bound cultures?
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    In my fairly brief working life in Japan (5 years at a school), it's not uncommon to do things without permission out of respect for your supervisor. That seems strange, but if you know that you must do something, but that your supervisor must say "no", then doing it helps the supervisor save face. They can yell at you publicly for doing the"wrong thing" and then nobody can criticise them. You've been yelled at and if you look sorry (it helps to cry a little bit), then everybody will forget about it and nobody will blame you after that. Weird dances like that are one of the reasons why it's difficult for foreigners to fit in :-)
    - hueving 8y ago
      >Weird dances like that are one of the reasons why it's difficult for foreigners to fit in :-) Western cultures have them too but they are so ingrained you don't notice them. This video highlights some of the more interesting ones (e.g. refusing to accept an apology being offensive): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfO9gL28pAs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfO9gL28pAs
      - mmt 8y ago
        > This video highlights some of the more interesting ones (e.g. refusing to accept an apology being offensive) I didn't catch that. He only offered a somewhat contrived example of it being rude to "take back" an apology (which is, of course, not a thing) after being told it "wasn't owed". His thesis was, AFAICT, that this is an example of empty gestures, that we don't really mean it. However, that falls flat with the apology example. An apology that is actually sincere isn't something that can be taken back, so it could only be empty if it were insincere, and in his anecdote, he did not even imply insincincerity. He talks about the words not making sense when analyzes, which I assume is in reference to the fact that "you don't owe me an apology" sounds like a rejection of the apology, but, it isn't. If it's truthful and can be interpreted literally, then no offense was taken in the first place. If it's untruthful, then offense was taken but the apology was accepted (and presumably the insincerety was a lie told to spare further bad feelings). Either way, no offense remained on the part of the apology recipient. None of that was empty gesture, and there was only one opportunity for lying to spare someone's feelings (though this was not called out in the video). The rest was about Japan and the old Soviet bloc. I think you need to come up with a better example of a "weird dance" in Western culture, preferably with more observers than just the (usually two) participants.
      - mikekchar 8y ago
        Yeah, that's very true. It's an interesting talk as well. One of the examples is highly codified in Japan. If you offer someone something, they must refuse. Then you must offer it again. Then they must accept it. Any variation on that leads to one of the parties being really upset :-). One of the cool things about this is that regifting is completely accepted in Japan. Because you must accept what's being offered, it is considered normal to make a gift of it to someone else if you don't actually want it. This is one of the things that I trip over often. Quite frequently if someone offers me some food, I'll think, "Oh I have a lot of food in the house. I can't eat that." But you have to be thinking, "Who can I give that to". It's weird, but I also like it because people are constantly giving gifts (to the point where it's rare that I don't receive something almost ever week).
    - dnautics 8y ago
      Isn't doing this very much a thing in the US as well?
- azernik 8y ago
  One of the criticisms I've often heard of Arab managerial and military-command culture (at least in conventional organizations) is that it strongly disapproves of individual initiative; in such a case, asking permission might satiate the cultural drive for top-down micromanagement while still allowing subordinates to contribute their local knowledge to the decision-making process.
  - flukus 8y ago
    Hasn't initiative been a hallmark of a successful military for much of history? I've heard it put forth as a chief reason for the success of Romans (phyric wars), French (Napoleonic wars), Prussians (Franco Prussian war) and Germans (WW2) to win engagements against their extremely rigid enemies.
    - beaconstudios 8y ago
      whose initiative though, the soldiers or the generals?
      - PeterisP 8y ago
        In this context 'initiative' means explicitly not the generals, but on all lower levels, extending as low level as reasonably possible - though often not to the individual soldier level, but to the smallest unit (given that time/era/technology/tactics) that can be effective on it's own and is expected to stay together at almost all times. In WW2 that generally was up until the squad level, with a focus on NCOs (non-officers leading ~10 men) taking initiative; in earlier times infantry required a bit larger formations to be able to fight efficiently, so initiative of relativerly lower-ranking officers.
      - azernik 8y ago
        Generally, junior officers or higher-ranking NCOs. Some people are too narrowly focused to understand the big picture; upper management is too focused on the big picture to micromanage. It's up to middle management to both have a grasp of bot the overall goals of the organization, and their specific organizational unit's capabilities and tasks.
- tyfon 8y ago
  I think this is more an American thing and I don't see much of it here in Norway (arguably another western country). A lone ranger will not find much sympathy even if the solution works. Not only does it apply in a company setting but if you were to build something on your property without permission from neighbours / government you will have to tear it down and face the fines even if in the end no one have an actual problem with it.
  - rusk 8y ago
    > if you were to build something on your property without permission from neighbours / government Like "planning permission"? Don't they have this everywhere? Seems fair enough to me. Built structures have such an impact on the environment it absolutely makes sense to regulate construction.
    - CamTin 8y ago
      Most even vaguely urbanized areas in the US have this, but it's a typically a municipal-level (county or city) thing, so yes, there are sizable chunks of the US that have no zoning or building codes, but they're out in the boonies and typically in areas where people live on large parcels, so there are fewer problems with neighbors complaining, since they might not even be able to tell from their own property. That doesn't mean you can build a factory or nuclear plant necessarily, since those kinds of things will typically require state- or federal-level permits, but it does mean you can put up a fence or a pole barn on your own land without asking anyone's permission.
      - rusk 8y ago
        > it does mean you can put up a fence or a pole barn on your own land Fences don't require planning permission nor do temporary structures [0]. If you build a house without seeking permission though they will make you tear it down again. [0] http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-planning/frequently-asked-questions-planning http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-planning/frequen...
- rusk 8y ago
  I think what we're talking about here is "Power Distance Index" [0], one of Oersteds most well know dimensions, covered in Malcom Gladwell's "Outliers". It's the degree to which people in a society capitulate to power and to which those in power are aloof to their subordinates. There are some very interesting patterns in that measurement indeed. [0] http://www.clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-dimensions/power-distance-index/ http://www.clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-dimen...
- pvg 8y ago
  a Western (American) culture in which the ends frequently justify the means That's a really loaded and almost certainly inaccurate premise.
- nopermsnopemrs 8y ago
  I think in my culture back home (Pakistan/India), asking for permission is really just to show respect and usually easy to obtain. For example, here in the US teenagers usually tell their parents that they are going out. In my culture, teenagers usually ask their parents if they can go out. And I cannot remember ever been denied when I was teenager. I think if I had simply told my parents that I was going out, they would have stopped me to ask more question or even stopped me from going out.
candiodari 8y ago
It's also that asking for permission allows the manager to "preventively" re-arrange the project/effort/whatever you want permission for, and thus leads to failure.
gowld 8y ago
That's what the OP is saying. It's a 2-party transaction. "Ask forgiveness" implies "Get forgiveness".

by majos 8y ago

It's also easier to give forgiveness than permission, especially in an institutional context. Forgiveness after the fact doesn't imply approval of the act the way permission beforehand does.

mieseratte 8y ago

That's a very good point, and for a Western (American) culture in which the ends frequently justify the means (success vs. failure) this rings true. Which makes me wonder, are there cultures wherein permission is easy, but forgiveness is not?

ValleyOfTheMtns 8y ago
Perhaps in more honour-bound cultures?
- mikekchar 8y ago
  In my fairly brief working life in Japan (5 years at a school), it's not uncommon to do things without permission out of respect for your supervisor. That seems strange, but if you know that you must do something, but that your supervisor must say "no", then doing it helps the supervisor save face. They can yell at you publicly for doing the"wrong thing" and then nobody can criticise them. You've been yelled at and if you look sorry (it helps to cry a little bit), then everybody will forget about it and nobody will blame you after that. Weird dances like that are one of the reasons why it's difficult for foreigners to fit in :-)
  - hueving 8y ago
    >Weird dances like that are one of the reasons why it's difficult for foreigners to fit in :-) Western cultures have them too but they are so ingrained you don't notice them. This video highlights some of the more interesting ones (e.g. refusing to accept an apology being offensive): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfO9gL28pAs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfO9gL28pAs
    - mmt 8y ago
      > This video highlights some of the more interesting ones (e.g. refusing to accept an apology being offensive) I didn't catch that. He only offered a somewhat contrived example of it being rude to "take back" an apology (which is, of course, not a thing) after being told it "wasn't owed". His thesis was, AFAICT, that this is an example of empty gestures, that we don't really mean it. However, that falls flat with the apology example. An apology that is actually sincere isn't something that can be taken back, so it could only be empty if it were insincere, and in his anecdote, he did not even imply insincincerity. He talks about the words not making sense when analyzes, which I assume is in reference to the fact that "you don't owe me an apology" sounds like a rejection of the apology, but, it isn't. If it's truthful and can be interpreted literally, then no offense was taken in the first place. If it's untruthful, then offense was taken but the apology was accepted (and presumably the insincerety was a lie told to spare further bad feelings). Either way, no offense remained on the part of the apology recipient. None of that was empty gesture, and there was only one opportunity for lying to spare someone's feelings (though this was not called out in the video). The rest was about Japan and the old Soviet bloc. I think you need to come up with a better example of a "weird dance" in Western culture, preferably with more observers than just the (usually two) participants.
    - mikekchar 8y ago
      Yeah, that's very true. It's an interesting talk as well. One of the examples is highly codified in Japan. If you offer someone something, they must refuse. Then you must offer it again. Then they must accept it. Any variation on that leads to one of the parties being really upset :-). One of the cool things about this is that regifting is completely accepted in Japan. Because you must accept what's being offered, it is considered normal to make a gift of it to someone else if you don't actually want it. This is one of the things that I trip over often. Quite frequently if someone offers me some food, I'll think, "Oh I have a lot of food in the house. I can't eat that." But you have to be thinking, "Who can I give that to". It's weird, but I also like it because people are constantly giving gifts (to the point where it's rare that I don't receive something almost ever week).
  - dnautics 8y ago
    Isn't doing this very much a thing in the US as well?
azernik 8y ago
One of the criticisms I've often heard of Arab managerial and military-command culture (at least in conventional organizations) is that it strongly disapproves of individual initiative; in such a case, asking permission might satiate the cultural drive for top-down micromanagement while still allowing subordinates to contribute their local knowledge to the decision-making process.
- flukus 8y ago
  Hasn't initiative been a hallmark of a successful military for much of history? I've heard it put forth as a chief reason for the success of Romans (phyric wars), French (Napoleonic wars), Prussians (Franco Prussian war) and Germans (WW2) to win engagements against their extremely rigid enemies.
  - beaconstudios 8y ago
    whose initiative though, the soldiers or the generals?
    - PeterisP 8y ago
      In this context 'initiative' means explicitly not the generals, but on all lower levels, extending as low level as reasonably possible - though often not to the individual soldier level, but to the smallest unit (given that time/era/technology/tactics) that can be effective on it's own and is expected to stay together at almost all times. In WW2 that generally was up until the squad level, with a focus on NCOs (non-officers leading ~10 men) taking initiative; in earlier times infantry required a bit larger formations to be able to fight efficiently, so initiative of relativerly lower-ranking officers.
    - azernik 8y ago
      Generally, junior officers or higher-ranking NCOs. Some people are too narrowly focused to understand the big picture; upper management is too focused on the big picture to micromanage. It's up to middle management to both have a grasp of bot the overall goals of the organization, and their specific organizational unit's capabilities and tasks.
tyfon 8y ago
I think this is more an American thing and I don't see much of it here in Norway (arguably another western country). A lone ranger will not find much sympathy even if the solution works. Not only does it apply in a company setting but if you were to build something on your property without permission from neighbours / government you will have to tear it down and face the fines even if in the end no one have an actual problem with it.
- rusk 8y ago
  > if you were to build something on your property without permission from neighbours / government Like "planning permission"? Don't they have this everywhere? Seems fair enough to me. Built structures have such an impact on the environment it absolutely makes sense to regulate construction.
  - CamTin 8y ago
    Most even vaguely urbanized areas in the US have this, but it's a typically a municipal-level (county or city) thing, so yes, there are sizable chunks of the US that have no zoning or building codes, but they're out in the boonies and typically in areas where people live on large parcels, so there are fewer problems with neighbors complaining, since they might not even be able to tell from their own property. That doesn't mean you can build a factory or nuclear plant necessarily, since those kinds of things will typically require state- or federal-level permits, but it does mean you can put up a fence or a pole barn on your own land without asking anyone's permission.
    - rusk 8y ago
      > it does mean you can put up a fence or a pole barn on your own land Fences don't require planning permission nor do temporary structures [0]. If you build a house without seeking permission though they will make you tear it down again. [0] http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-planning/frequently-asked-questions-planning http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-planning/frequen...
rusk 8y ago
I think what we're talking about here is "Power Distance Index" [0], one of Oersteds most well know dimensions, covered in Malcom Gladwell's "Outliers". It's the degree to which people in a society capitulate to power and to which those in power are aloof to their subordinates. There are some very interesting patterns in that measurement indeed. [0] http://www.clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-dimensions/power-distance-index/ http://www.clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-dimen...
pvg 8y ago
a Western (American) culture in which the ends frequently justify the means That's a really loaded and almost certainly inaccurate premise.
nopermsnopemrs 8y ago
I think in my culture back home (Pakistan/India), asking for permission is really just to show respect and usually easy to obtain. For example, here in the US teenagers usually tell their parents that they are going out. In my culture, teenagers usually ask their parents if they can go out. And I cannot remember ever been denied when I was teenager. I think if I had simply told my parents that I was going out, they would have stopped me to ask more question or even stopped me from going out.

candiodari 8y ago

It's also that asking for permission allows the manager to "preventively" re-arrange the project/effort/whatever you want permission for, and thus leads to failure.

gowld 8y ago

That's what the OP is saying. It's a 2-party transaction. "Ask forgiveness" implies "Get forgiveness".