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>Furthermore, the article claims that postmodern is characterized by an ironic self awareness, and never has this idea been more prominent in culture. In recent

>Furthermore, the article claims that postmodern is characterized by an ironic self awareness, and never has this idea been more prominent in culture. In recent years I have noticed that TV commercials have become more and more self-aware. Take for example a recent commercial by what I believe was Verizon. It says something like "More coverage, more data." and then another actor comes into screen saying "and more people saying more." If this isn't ironic self awareness, I'm not sure what is. I think that perfectly proves the author's point, though. The "self awareness" of postmodernism has filtered to even the most banal of sources and been left in the dust by the avant garde of today. Irony and sarcasm as critical devices are dead for anyone but the hacks. From the article: >"people who produce the cultural material which academics and non-academics read, watch and listen to, have simply given up on postmodernism. The occasional metafictional or self-conscious text will appear, to widespread indifference – like Bret Easton Ellis’ Lunar Park – but then modernist novels, now long forgotten, were still being written into the 1950s and 60s. The only place where the postmodern is extant is in children’s cartoons like Shrek and The Incredibles, as a sop to parents obliged to sit through them with their toddlers. This is the level to which postmodernism has sunk; a source of marginal gags in pop culture aimed at the under-eights."

trophycase 8y ago
>"people who produce the cultural material which academics and non-academics read, watch and listen to both academics and non-academics watch/see advertising, they see memes, many of which are highly self aware. What about Rick and Morty, an incredibly popular TV show among many groups of people? Nihilism, self-awareness, and breaking the 4th wall are basically trademarks of the show. Also as I stated, postmodern concepts like simulacra and hyperreal are more useful descriptors than ever.
- aphextron 8y ago
  >What about Rick and Morty, an incredibly popular TV show among many groups of people? Nihilism, self-awareness, and breaking the 4th wall are basically trademarks of the show. See: "most banal of sources". Rick and Morty is a case study on this exact point. A perfectly plausible commercially packaged shadow of reality. I wouldn't be so elitist as to call Roiland a hack, but he is working firmly within "what was and is". He is not showing us an envisioned possible future, or exploring any novel ideas. It's just riding the last dying gasps of postmodern existential angst that was drilled into our heads by The Simpsons and Family Guy. Perfectly competent as a work of commercial entertainment, but not original art to be studied critically.
  - jacobush 8y ago
    Ehrm, I'd definitely say it's worthy of study. But I agree 100% on the lack of envisioned future, good or bad. No warning (such as Philip K. Dick), no vision (such as earlier Star Trek).
    - ionised 8y ago
      Why does the show need to have either of these things?
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >See: "most banal of sources". Rick and Morty is a case study on this exact point. While it is indeed banal, please, then, mention any other source that is not banal, and does not owe 90% of its existence to postmodernism. I don't think you'll find any on either side of the Atlantic, no matter how highbrow it purports to be. >He is not showing us an envisioned possible future, or exploring any novel ideas. That's orthogonal and unrelated to postmodernism. Postmodernism wasn't about envisioning new ideas and futures -- in fact it said that new ideas are nigh impossible, as all current forms/ideas are just imitations and recombinations of existing ideas and forms, and all are perceived with equal indifference towards their novelty factor (or lack thereof). In other words, if I created Blugrass-Death Metal-Opera combo in 1920 I would be a pioneer and a modernism breaking norms etc, and would have even shocked some part of the establishment and public. Nowadays it would be business as usual, even if somebody hasn't already made that combination, nobody would bat an eye for its emergence. And the same holds true for anything else. It's just a new product, not a new form. When music (to keep it to that sphere) progressed in small steps that took decades/years to be superceded, there were new forms (eg. Palestrina, Mozart, Beethoven, Mahler, Stravinsky, etc). Now that it has embraced anything from silence (4.33) to total noise (e.g. Pan Sonic and noisecore), there's nothing really new. Anything will sit somewhere between those extremes (that are already received).
coldtea 8y ago
>I think that perfectly proves the author's point, though. The "self awareness" of postmodernism has filtered to even the most banal of sources and been left in the dust by the avant garde of today. Irony and sarcasm as critical devices are dead for anyone but the hacks. Only today there are only hacks. And everybody still uses irony and sarcasm. Besides, the parent is right. Postmodernism is not a theory to inform cultural production (how people make stuff), although its confusingly referred to as such sometimes. Postmodernism is a condition of a whole culture (or a whole society) and the inventions that appeared later on (the internet, mobile apps, interactive shows etc) that the author speaks about, only serve to make the world even more postmodern. The core of postmodernism is that we have exhausted modernity -- and indeed there are no trends that are "new under the sun anymore", not just because everything has been done before (which is almost true), but because society doesn't care about following this or that form en masse anymore and then proceeding to another (e.g. how baroque turned romantic, turned 12-tone, etc. or similarly in any other sphere). Instead, everything is fragmented, and everybody (artist or not) can do whatever they please and have an audience/followers. There is no canon and no single "normative" culture the way it was 80 or 100 or 150 years ago. Plus, nothing is able to baffle anyone anymore -- in the way that each generation before could shock some part of the established culture (up to perhaps punk, but probably not even that, and not even 50s rock n' roll -- it only shocked the most conservative parts of society, and had no problem being marketed, sold, and dominating the airwaves in record time). Postmodernism is also about having access to all the cultural production and modes of the past, and the internet and co made that even more so. Artists, politicians, marketeers, etc can borrow from any period, and repackage and resell everything, combine it, etc. All of these things are what are described as the "postmodern condition" by the now dead French theorists of the postmodernism. And none of those things is going away. Even a total return to modernism or classicism across all artists for example, would still be postmodern -- because before post-modernism art didn't regress to previous periods, it invented new modes.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- rusk 8y ago
  > Plus, nothing is able to baffle anyone anymore -- in the way that each generation before could shock some part of the established culture (up to perhaps punk, ... This whole paragraph made me think of Black Mirror. > Instead, everything is fragmented, Isn't there a new form of art (the likes of BM) that takes all these fragment and puts them back together in novel ways that help us reconnect them with the human condition and what that means in a post-modernist society. Not so much trying to go back in time but trying to reach back for things that were important and give them new prominence? As I write this, I'm considering the Jordan Peterson as performance art .. he certainly shocks and discomfits many people and as much as you might like him or disagree with him is position is pretty much unassailable. Even Trump and Brexit look more sensible through this lense. Indeed, isn't one of Putin's most senior advisors some kind of professor of post-modernism or something? As PM becomes more and more mainstream surely it makes sense that society find new and unusual ways to continue cultural progress ... EDIT some other modern media that pops to mind: Mr Robot with it's non-linear narrative and skewed perspective on modernity. The Handmaids tale which, though a few decades old, actually seems more relevant nowadays. I want to say "Ex Machina" but I kind of feel the narrative style doesn't serve the subject matter at all.
dolzenko 8y ago
How one knows what is "avant garde of today"?

trophycase 8y ago

>"people who produce the cultural material which academics and non-academics read, watch and listen to both academics and non-academics watch/see advertising, they see memes, many of which are highly self aware. What about Rick and Morty, an incredibly popular TV show among many groups of people? Nihilism, self-awareness, and breaking the 4th wall are basically trademarks of the show. Also as I stated, postmodern concepts like simulacra and hyperreal are more useful descriptors than ever.

aphextron 8y ago
>What about Rick and Morty, an incredibly popular TV show among many groups of people? Nihilism, self-awareness, and breaking the 4th wall are basically trademarks of the show. See: "most banal of sources". Rick and Morty is a case study on this exact point. A perfectly plausible commercially packaged shadow of reality. I wouldn't be so elitist as to call Roiland a hack, but he is working firmly within "what was and is". He is not showing us an envisioned possible future, or exploring any novel ideas. It's just riding the last dying gasps of postmodern existential angst that was drilled into our heads by The Simpsons and Family Guy. Perfectly competent as a work of commercial entertainment, but not original art to be studied critically.
- jacobush 8y ago
  Ehrm, I'd definitely say it's worthy of study. But I agree 100% on the lack of envisioned future, good or bad. No warning (such as Philip K. Dick), no vision (such as earlier Star Trek).
  - ionised 8y ago
    Why does the show need to have either of these things?
- coldtea 8y ago
  >See: "most banal of sources". Rick and Morty is a case study on this exact point. While it is indeed banal, please, then, mention any other source that is not banal, and does not owe 90% of its existence to postmodernism. I don't think you'll find any on either side of the Atlantic, no matter how highbrow it purports to be. >He is not showing us an envisioned possible future, or exploring any novel ideas. That's orthogonal and unrelated to postmodernism. Postmodernism wasn't about envisioning new ideas and futures -- in fact it said that new ideas are nigh impossible, as all current forms/ideas are just imitations and recombinations of existing ideas and forms, and all are perceived with equal indifference towards their novelty factor (or lack thereof). In other words, if I created Blugrass-Death Metal-Opera combo in 1920 I would be a pioneer and a modernism breaking norms etc, and would have even shocked some part of the establishment and public. Nowadays it would be business as usual, even if somebody hasn't already made that combination, nobody would bat an eye for its emergence. And the same holds true for anything else. It's just a new product, not a new form. When music (to keep it to that sphere) progressed in small steps that took decades/years to be superceded, there were new forms (eg. Palestrina, Mozart, Beethoven, Mahler, Stravinsky, etc). Now that it has embraced anything from silence (4.33) to total noise (e.g. Pan Sonic and noisecore), there's nothing really new. Anything will sit somewhere between those extremes (that are already received).

coldtea 8y ago

>I think that perfectly proves the author's point, though. The "self awareness" of postmodernism has filtered to even the most banal of sources and been left in the dust by the avant garde of today. Irony and sarcasm as critical devices are dead for anyone but the hacks. Only today there are only hacks. And everybody still uses irony and sarcasm. Besides, the parent is right. Postmodernism is not a theory to inform cultural production (how people make stuff), although its confusingly referred to as such sometimes. Postmodernism is a condition of a whole culture (or a whole society) and the inventions that appeared later on (the internet, mobile apps, interactive shows etc) that the author speaks about, only serve to make the world even more postmodern. The core of postmodernism is that we have exhausted modernity -- and indeed there are no trends that are "new under the sun anymore", not just because everything has been done before (which is almost true), but because society doesn't care about following this or that form en masse anymore and then proceeding to another (e.g. how baroque turned romantic, turned 12-tone, etc. or similarly in any other sphere). Instead, everything is fragmented, and everybody (artist or not) can do whatever they please and have an audience/followers. There is no canon and no single "normative" culture the way it was 80 or 100 or 150 years ago. Plus, nothing is able to baffle anyone anymore -- in the way that each generation before could shock some part of the established culture (up to perhaps punk, but probably not even that, and not even 50s rock n' roll -- it only shocked the most conservative parts of society, and had no problem being marketed, sold, and dominating the airwaves in record time). Postmodernism is also about having access to all the cultural production and modes of the past, and the internet and co made that even more so. Artists, politicians, marketeers, etc can borrow from any period, and repackage and resell everything, combine it, etc. All of these things are what are described as the "postmodern condition" by the now dead French theorists of the postmodernism. And none of those things is going away. Even a total return to modernism or classicism across all artists for example, would still be postmodern -- because before post-modernism art didn't regress to previous periods, it invented new modes.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
rusk 8y ago
> Plus, nothing is able to baffle anyone anymore -- in the way that each generation before could shock some part of the established culture (up to perhaps punk, ... This whole paragraph made me think of Black Mirror. > Instead, everything is fragmented, Isn't there a new form of art (the likes of BM) that takes all these fragment and puts them back together in novel ways that help us reconnect them with the human condition and what that means in a post-modernist society. Not so much trying to go back in time but trying to reach back for things that were important and give them new prominence? As I write this, I'm considering the Jordan Peterson as performance art .. he certainly shocks and discomfits many people and as much as you might like him or disagree with him is position is pretty much unassailable. Even Trump and Brexit look more sensible through this lense. Indeed, isn't one of Putin's most senior advisors some kind of professor of post-modernism or something? As PM becomes more and more mainstream surely it makes sense that society find new and unusual ways to continue cultural progress ... EDIT some other modern media that pops to mind: Mr Robot with it's non-linear narrative and skewed perspective on modernity. The Handmaids tale which, though a few decades old, actually seems more relevant nowadays. I want to say "Ex Machina" but I kind of feel the narrative style doesn't serve the subject matter at all.

dolzenko 8y ago

How one knows what is "avant garde of today"?