4 ms·

We actually have this in Germany for over a decade [1], if not two. Personally, I'd say we got more packaging not less. So I am not sure such we can say it fail

by pintxo 8y ago

We actually have this in Germany for over a decade [1], if not two. Personally, I'd say we got more packaging not less. So I am not sure such we can say it failed, but it's not really working either. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Dot_(symbol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Dot_(symbol)

oldcynic 8y ago
That's... disappointing. I don't know enough about the scheme to comment much. Maybe the fees are low enough to not encourage much change. Perhaps we need a popular campaign of dumping all the single use plastic back to Tesco etc. :)
- majewsky 8y ago
  The EU is actually pushing some of this. In Germany, stores used to offer plastic bags at checkout. But in the last year or so, nearly all of them switched to paper bags (with loud greenwashed advertising accompanying it) after the EU threatened to outlaw plastic bags entirely. The EU is now also looking into outlawing some single-use plastic items like straws that contribute a lot to plastic waste. News media fabricated a public outroar over this, making it sound like the EU wants to outlaw childrens' birthday parties, when in actuality the EU focused on plastic items where there exist viable replacements made from decomposable plant-based materials.
  - oldcynic 8y ago
    UK ban of free plastic bags has been a resounding success if you go on the lack of bags littering streets and countryside. Surprisingly perhaps the UK media seems in favour of the straws and stirrers changes (possibly excluding the Daily Mail). Industry has lobbied against both. It seems equally clear that in the absence of bans and heavy regulation no effort will be made to reduce use so I'd be in favour of everything that pushes back against the growth of single use plastics.
cobbzilla 8y ago
Green Dot recycles the packaging but I think the GP was proposing that companies recycle (or safely dispose of) any actual durable (not consumable) products they sell. The legal stuff and logistics would be difficult to get right, but it is an interesting idea.
- Joeri 8y ago
  That’s what the WEEE directive has implemented in the EU since 2005. Electrical goods have the recycling cost baked into the price and stores are used as collection points with manufacturers either organizing their own recycling program (e.g. apple) or relying on a recycling organization to do it for them.
  - cobbzilla 8y ago
    Sounds like a good move in the right direction. Is the system working well? Does it apply to all electric things?
    - Symbiote 8y ago
      Have a look on any nearby electronics, if there's a symbol of a crossed out rubbish bin, often with "EU ONLY" printed underneath, then WEEE apples. How well it works depends on the country or area. Here in Copenhagen, most apartment blocks have an electronics/electrical bin, so presumably the recycling rate is very high. However, the reuse rate might be lower -- I've taken a few fully-working things out of the bin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electronic_Equipment_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electroni...
mc32 8y ago
Let's not forget that the green dot (der gruen punkt) program has had a history of corruption, even though it is admired as a model for recycling. One of the initial scandals here[1], but there have been subsequent scandals as well. [1]http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.html?programID=93-P13-00023&segmentID=1 http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.html?programID=93-P13-0002...
Reason077 8y ago
Deposit-return schemes are also required in Germany for all disposable drinks containers, and are gaining momentum in other European countries. At the very least, these schemes are effective at reducing litter and ensuring less plastic waste reaches the environment and oceans.
- pintxo 8y ago
  Yes, and the introduction of deposit-return for non-reuse bottles "killed" the reusable bottles. See [1] on page 8 (only in German), "Einweg-Kunststoff" (non-reusable plastic) won the game. With "Mehrweg-Glas" (reusable glass) loosing the most. Not sure if reusable glass was so much more environmentally friendly (think transporting heavy empty glass bottles through the countryside by trucks), but environmental effects through transportation might be easier to mitigate long-term than plastic pollution. Side node: While plastic won the race for water and soda/juices, Germans still prefer their beer to be served in glass. [1] https://diw-econ.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/DIW_Econ_BGVZ_Oekonomie_der_Getraenkeverpackung_v2.0-1.pdf https://diw-econ.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/DIW_Econ_BGVZ...
  - oldcynic 8y ago
    I'm not sure either - and there's one of the problems. We're not given the full cost and consequence of each alternative. I did read a piece a few months back discussing glass against recycled plastic. Plastic apparently needs far more washing, and at higher temperature and pressure, before it can be recycled. The washing to remove glue, labels and dried food which are all more difficult to get off plastic, and also because plastic recycling is so easy to pollute and ruin the whole batch.

by pintxo 8y ago

oldcynic 8y ago

That's... disappointing. I don't know enough about the scheme to comment much. Maybe the fees are low enough to not encourage much change. Perhaps we need a popular campaign of dumping all the single use plastic back to Tesco etc. :)

majewsky 8y ago
The EU is actually pushing some of this. In Germany, stores used to offer plastic bags at checkout. But in the last year or so, nearly all of them switched to paper bags (with loud greenwashed advertising accompanying it) after the EU threatened to outlaw plastic bags entirely. The EU is now also looking into outlawing some single-use plastic items like straws that contribute a lot to plastic waste. News media fabricated a public outroar over this, making it sound like the EU wants to outlaw childrens' birthday parties, when in actuality the EU focused on plastic items where there exist viable replacements made from decomposable plant-based materials.
- oldcynic 8y ago
  UK ban of free plastic bags has been a resounding success if you go on the lack of bags littering streets and countryside. Surprisingly perhaps the UK media seems in favour of the straws and stirrers changes (possibly excluding the Daily Mail). Industry has lobbied against both. It seems equally clear that in the absence of bans and heavy regulation no effort will be made to reduce use so I'd be in favour of everything that pushes back against the growth of single use plastics.

cobbzilla 8y ago

Green Dot recycles the packaging but I think the GP was proposing that companies recycle (or safely dispose of) any actual durable (not consumable) products they sell. The legal stuff and logistics would be difficult to get right, but it is an interesting idea.

Joeri 8y ago
That’s what the WEEE directive has implemented in the EU since 2005. Electrical goods have the recycling cost baked into the price and stores are used as collection points with manufacturers either organizing their own recycling program (e.g. apple) or relying on a recycling organization to do it for them.
- cobbzilla 8y ago
  Sounds like a good move in the right direction. Is the system working well? Does it apply to all electric things?
  - Symbiote 8y ago
    Have a look on any nearby electronics, if there's a symbol of a crossed out rubbish bin, often with "EU ONLY" printed underneath, then WEEE apples. How well it works depends on the country or area. Here in Copenhagen, most apartment blocks have an electronics/electrical bin, so presumably the recycling rate is very high. However, the reuse rate might be lower -- I've taken a few fully-working things out of the bin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electronic_Equipment_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electroni...

mc32 8y ago

Let's not forget that the green dot (der gruen punkt) program has had a history of corruption, even though it is admired as a model for recycling. One of the initial scandals here[1], but there have been subsequent scandals as well. [1]http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.html?programID=93-P13-00023&segmentID=1 http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.html?programID=93-P13-0002...

Reason077 8y ago

Deposit-return schemes are also required in Germany for all disposable drinks containers, and are gaining momentum in other European countries. At the very least, these schemes are effective at reducing litter and ensuring less plastic waste reaches the environment and oceans.

pintxo 8y ago
Yes, and the introduction of deposit-return for non-reuse bottles "killed" the reusable bottles. See [1] on page 8 (only in German), "Einweg-Kunststoff" (non-reusable plastic) won the game. With "Mehrweg-Glas" (reusable glass) loosing the most. Not sure if reusable glass was so much more environmentally friendly (think transporting heavy empty glass bottles through the countryside by trucks), but environmental effects through transportation might be easier to mitigate long-term than plastic pollution. Side node: While plastic won the race for water and soda/juices, Germans still prefer their beer to be served in glass. [1] https://diw-econ.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/DIW_Econ_BGVZ_Oekonomie_der_Getraenkeverpackung_v2.0-1.pdf https://diw-econ.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/DIW_Econ_BGVZ...
- oldcynic 8y ago
  I'm not sure either - and there's one of the problems. We're not given the full cost and consequence of each alternative. I did read a piece a few months back discussing glass against recycled plastic. Plastic apparently needs far more washing, and at higher temperature and pressure, before it can be recycled. The washing to remove glue, labels and dried food which are all more difficult to get off plastic, and also because plastic recycling is so easy to pollute and ruin the whole batch.