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The rules are too complex. If you move home to a few miles away the rules change. Various parts of the recycling chain are highly fragile and far too easy to p

The rules are too complex. If you move home to a few miles away the rules change. Various parts of the recycling chain are highly fragile and far too easy to pollute (as the article discusses), or too susceptible to not being profitable. We've known that for years. Seems like a giant exercise in missing the point. Should profit be the prime motive? Should we be recycling when re-use used to work so well for many products? Do we want to actually preserve the planet or merely go through the motions with recycling theatre until waste grows another order of magnitude? The waste from a weekly supermarket shop is horrifying compared to the equivalent waste in the nineties. I think the time has come to take a cue from earlier times and simply require the manufacturers and retailers to cover the cost - you made it, you pay for its disposal, recycling or reuse. Suspect things would start to resolve quite quickly. Before you say that can't possibly work, for many categories it used to, and it worked very well. For other categories, it should be ample encouragement to return to less packaging, or for fruit and veg, no packaging. We'd start to see some properly biodegradable solutions. No, I don't suppose this will be too popular, especially with me wanting regulation to "encourage" it.

pintxo 8y ago
We actually have this in Germany for over a decade [1], if not two. Personally, I'd say we got more packaging not less. So I am not sure such we can say it failed, but it's not really working either. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Dot_(symbol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Dot_(symbol)
- oldcynic 8y ago
  That's... disappointing. I don't know enough about the scheme to comment much. Maybe the fees are low enough to not encourage much change. Perhaps we need a popular campaign of dumping all the single use plastic back to Tesco etc. :)
  - majewsky 8y ago
    The EU is actually pushing some of this. In Germany, stores used to offer plastic bags at checkout. But in the last year or so, nearly all of them switched to paper bags (with loud greenwashed advertising accompanying it) after the EU threatened to outlaw plastic bags entirely. The EU is now also looking into outlawing some single-use plastic items like straws that contribute a lot to plastic waste. News media fabricated a public outroar over this, making it sound like the EU wants to outlaw childrens' birthday parties, when in actuality the EU focused on plastic items where there exist viable replacements made from decomposable plant-based materials.
    - oldcynic 8y ago
      UK ban of free plastic bags has been a resounding success if you go on the lack of bags littering streets and countryside. Surprisingly perhaps the UK media seems in favour of the straws and stirrers changes (possibly excluding the Daily Mail). Industry has lobbied against both. It seems equally clear that in the absence of bans and heavy regulation no effort will be made to reduce use so I'd be in favour of everything that pushes back against the growth of single use plastics.
- cobbzilla 8y ago
  Green Dot recycles the packaging but I think the GP was proposing that companies recycle (or safely dispose of) any actual durable (not consumable) products they sell. The legal stuff and logistics would be difficult to get right, but it is an interesting idea.
  - Joeri 8y ago
    That’s what the WEEE directive has implemented in the EU since 2005. Electrical goods have the recycling cost baked into the price and stores are used as collection points with manufacturers either organizing their own recycling program (e.g. apple) or relying on a recycling organization to do it for them.
    - cobbzilla 8y ago
      Sounds like a good move in the right direction. Is the system working well? Does it apply to all electric things?
      - Symbiote 8y ago
        Have a look on any nearby electronics, if there's a symbol of a crossed out rubbish bin, often with "EU ONLY" printed underneath, then WEEE apples. How well it works depends on the country or area. Here in Copenhagen, most apartment blocks have an electronics/electrical bin, so presumably the recycling rate is very high. However, the reuse rate might be lower -- I've taken a few fully-working things out of the bin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electronic_Equipment_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electroni...
- mc32 8y ago
  Let's not forget that the green dot (der gruen punkt) program has had a history of corruption, even though it is admired as a model for recycling. One of the initial scandals here[1], but there have been subsequent scandals as well. [1]http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.html?programID=93-P13-00023&segmentID=1 http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.html?programID=93-P13-0002...
- Reason077 8y ago
  Deposit-return schemes are also required in Germany for all disposable drinks containers, and are gaining momentum in other European countries. At the very least, these schemes are effective at reducing litter and ensuring less plastic waste reaches the environment and oceans.
  - pintxo 8y ago
    Yes, and the introduction of deposit-return for non-reuse bottles "killed" the reusable bottles. See [1] on page 8 (only in German), "Einweg-Kunststoff" (non-reusable plastic) won the game. With "Mehrweg-Glas" (reusable glass) loosing the most. Not sure if reusable glass was so much more environmentally friendly (think transporting heavy empty glass bottles through the countryside by trucks), but environmental effects through transportation might be easier to mitigate long-term than plastic pollution. Side node: While plastic won the race for water and soda/juices, Germans still prefer their beer to be served in glass. [1] https://diw-econ.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/DIW_Econ_BGVZ_Oekonomie_der_Getraenkeverpackung_v2.0-1.pdf https://diw-econ.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/DIW_Econ_BGVZ...
    - oldcynic 8y ago
      I'm not sure either - and there's one of the problems. We're not given the full cost and consequence of each alternative. I did read a piece a few months back discussing glass against recycled plastic. Plastic apparently needs far more washing, and at higher temperature and pressure, before it can be recycled. The washing to remove glue, labels and dried food which are all more difficult to get off plastic, and also because plastic recycling is so easy to pollute and ruin the whole batch.
voltagex_ 8y ago
Some people require (or are greatly assisted by) packaged fruit and vegetables: https://crutchesandspice.com/2018/06/06/being-disabled-isnt-eco-friendly-get-off-our-backs-and-put-in-the-work/ https://crutchesandspice.com/2018/06/06/being-disabled-isnt-...
- colordrops 8y ago
  There should be special medically packaged foods, or tools and services paid for by medical insurance to assist people like this. We shouldn't make things worse for everybody for the few, when there are alternatives.
  - EADGBE 8y ago
    Why? So a pint of cantaloupe can cost $14? In the US, consumption of prepackaged fruit and veggies are rare enough that I'd be willing to bet the waste created from these (all the ones I've seen are recyclable containers, BTW) is minimal to all the fast food wrappers, boxed dinner meals, and non-recyclable waste created from how we eat normally.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
njarboe 8y ago
Modern dumps are sealed very well and can hold huge amounts. At $50 a ton we will never run out of space. Put everything in the dump. Plastic, green waste, garbage, paper, electronics, etc. Sort out pure metals like steel and aluminum. Do methane recovery on the pile and burn it for power. This will sequester a lot of carbon and at some point these dumps are likely to be mined as ore bodies. People can compost at their home if they like, but moving all this green waste around is costly and causes many plant diseases to spread much more quickly. Not to mention how horrible it is to get a load of chipped wood to put on your yard that has poison oak mixed in. We don't really need this little ritual of recycling to cleanse us of our consumerism sins. If we are really trying to help the environment, reduce, repair, and reuse is much more effective. Buy high quality stuff that lasts a long time. Edit: Another bonus is that you and your neighbors only have to be woken up early once a week by the one garbage truck that comes by instead of three times with the current separate garbage, recycling, green waste trucks.
- Freestyler_3 8y ago
  I have heard an argument that seperating the plastic (seperate garbage truck once a week) is actually worse for the environment and costs more. But local governments think of it as a huge succes because they only measure how much is seperated in the new proces, not how it compares in all aspects. The reason it costs more is because workers still have to seperate plastics from other types of plastic. Also the garbage truck every week, which is also the reason for more pollution. Plus all in all, the seperating plastics makes people moraly satisfied ( "they did their part, now back to buying more shit" ).
  - jarvelov 8y ago
    Regarding the multiple garbage trucks, there is at least the possibility of the truck having multiple separate containers to store different types of garbage.
    - Freestyler_3 8y ago
      Not here, they are different trucks completely. This city also has 3 systems which require at least 2 different truck types just for mixed garbage. (bags, underground container and bins) Then there is the greens bin and the trucks for that. The paper bin and the trucks for those. And the plastics are picked up as bags or from a big collection container, so I guess thats 2 different trucks as well. note: also there are big collection containers for paper and glass, which have different trucks as well.

pintxo 8y ago

We actually have this in Germany for over a decade [1], if not two. Personally, I'd say we got more packaging not less. So I am not sure such we can say it failed, but it's not really working either. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Dot_(symbol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Dot_(symbol)

oldcynic 8y ago
That's... disappointing. I don't know enough about the scheme to comment much. Maybe the fees are low enough to not encourage much change. Perhaps we need a popular campaign of dumping all the single use plastic back to Tesco etc. :)
- majewsky 8y ago
  The EU is actually pushing some of this. In Germany, stores used to offer plastic bags at checkout. But in the last year or so, nearly all of them switched to paper bags (with loud greenwashed advertising accompanying it) after the EU threatened to outlaw plastic bags entirely. The EU is now also looking into outlawing some single-use plastic items like straws that contribute a lot to plastic waste. News media fabricated a public outroar over this, making it sound like the EU wants to outlaw childrens' birthday parties, when in actuality the EU focused on plastic items where there exist viable replacements made from decomposable plant-based materials.
  - oldcynic 8y ago
    UK ban of free plastic bags has been a resounding success if you go on the lack of bags littering streets and countryside. Surprisingly perhaps the UK media seems in favour of the straws and stirrers changes (possibly excluding the Daily Mail). Industry has lobbied against both. It seems equally clear that in the absence of bans and heavy regulation no effort will be made to reduce use so I'd be in favour of everything that pushes back against the growth of single use plastics.
cobbzilla 8y ago
Green Dot recycles the packaging but I think the GP was proposing that companies recycle (or safely dispose of) any actual durable (not consumable) products they sell. The legal stuff and logistics would be difficult to get right, but it is an interesting idea.
- Joeri 8y ago
  That’s what the WEEE directive has implemented in the EU since 2005. Electrical goods have the recycling cost baked into the price and stores are used as collection points with manufacturers either organizing their own recycling program (e.g. apple) or relying on a recycling organization to do it for them.
  - cobbzilla 8y ago
    Sounds like a good move in the right direction. Is the system working well? Does it apply to all electric things?
    - Symbiote 8y ago
      Have a look on any nearby electronics, if there's a symbol of a crossed out rubbish bin, often with "EU ONLY" printed underneath, then WEEE apples. How well it works depends on the country or area. Here in Copenhagen, most apartment blocks have an electronics/electrical bin, so presumably the recycling rate is very high. However, the reuse rate might be lower -- I've taken a few fully-working things out of the bin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electronic_Equipment_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electroni...
mc32 8y ago
Let's not forget that the green dot (der gruen punkt) program has had a history of corruption, even though it is admired as a model for recycling. One of the initial scandals here[1], but there have been subsequent scandals as well. [1]http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.html?programID=93-P13-00023&segmentID=1 http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.html?programID=93-P13-0002...
Reason077 8y ago
Deposit-return schemes are also required in Germany for all disposable drinks containers, and are gaining momentum in other European countries. At the very least, these schemes are effective at reducing litter and ensuring less plastic waste reaches the environment and oceans.
- pintxo 8y ago
  Yes, and the introduction of deposit-return for non-reuse bottles "killed" the reusable bottles. See [1] on page 8 (only in German), "Einweg-Kunststoff" (non-reusable plastic) won the game. With "Mehrweg-Glas" (reusable glass) loosing the most. Not sure if reusable glass was so much more environmentally friendly (think transporting heavy empty glass bottles through the countryside by trucks), but environmental effects through transportation might be easier to mitigate long-term than plastic pollution. Side node: While plastic won the race for water and soda/juices, Germans still prefer their beer to be served in glass. [1] https://diw-econ.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/DIW_Econ_BGVZ_Oekonomie_der_Getraenkeverpackung_v2.0-1.pdf https://diw-econ.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/DIW_Econ_BGVZ...
  - oldcynic 8y ago
    I'm not sure either - and there's one of the problems. We're not given the full cost and consequence of each alternative. I did read a piece a few months back discussing glass against recycled plastic. Plastic apparently needs far more washing, and at higher temperature and pressure, before it can be recycled. The washing to remove glue, labels and dried food which are all more difficult to get off plastic, and also because plastic recycling is so easy to pollute and ruin the whole batch.

voltagex_ 8y ago

Some people require (or are greatly assisted by) packaged fruit and vegetables: https://crutchesandspice.com/2018/06/06/being-disabled-isnt-eco-friendly-get-off-our-backs-and-put-in-the-work/ https://crutchesandspice.com/2018/06/06/being-disabled-isnt-...

colordrops 8y ago
There should be special medically packaged foods, or tools and services paid for by medical insurance to assist people like this. We shouldn't make things worse for everybody for the few, when there are alternatives.
- EADGBE 8y ago
  Why? So a pint of cantaloupe can cost $14? In the US, consumption of prepackaged fruit and veggies are rare enough that I'd be willing to bet the waste created from these (all the ones I've seen are recyclable containers, BTW) is minimal to all the fast food wrappers, boxed dinner meals, and non-recyclable waste created from how we eat normally.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

njarboe 8y ago

Modern dumps are sealed very well and can hold huge amounts. At $50 a ton we will never run out of space. Put everything in the dump. Plastic, green waste, garbage, paper, electronics, etc. Sort out pure metals like steel and aluminum. Do methane recovery on the pile and burn it for power. This will sequester a lot of carbon and at some point these dumps are likely to be mined as ore bodies. People can compost at their home if they like, but moving all this green waste around is costly and causes many plant diseases to spread much more quickly. Not to mention how horrible it is to get a load of chipped wood to put on your yard that has poison oak mixed in. We don't really need this little ritual of recycling to cleanse us of our consumerism sins. If we are really trying to help the environment, reduce, repair, and reuse is much more effective. Buy high quality stuff that lasts a long time. Edit: Another bonus is that you and your neighbors only have to be woken up early once a week by the one garbage truck that comes by instead of three times with the current separate garbage, recycling, green waste trucks.

Freestyler_3 8y ago
I have heard an argument that seperating the plastic (seperate garbage truck once a week) is actually worse for the environment and costs more. But local governments think of it as a huge succes because they only measure how much is seperated in the new proces, not how it compares in all aspects. The reason it costs more is because workers still have to seperate plastics from other types of plastic. Also the garbage truck every week, which is also the reason for more pollution. Plus all in all, the seperating plastics makes people moraly satisfied ( "they did their part, now back to buying more shit" ).
- jarvelov 8y ago
  Regarding the multiple garbage trucks, there is at least the possibility of the truck having multiple separate containers to store different types of garbage.
  - Freestyler_3 8y ago
    Not here, they are different trucks completely. This city also has 3 systems which require at least 2 different truck types just for mixed garbage. (bags, underground container and bins) Then there is the greens bin and the trucks for that. The paper bin and the trucks for those. And the plastics are picked up as bags or from a big collection container, so I guess thats 2 different trucks as well. note: also there are big collection containers for paper and glass, which have different trucks as well.