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> The biggest hurdle is just admitting to yourself where you're at and how you got there. I state that in a lot of interviews. And also that I like to learn an

by ccajas 8y ago

> The biggest hurdle is just admitting to yourself where you're at and how you got there. I state that in a lot of interviews. And also that I like to learn and improve my skills. Companies don't seem to like it enough. Maybe I'm being too blunt about my shortcomings. I do not bash other companies when I interview. I just say I can do A, but I want to improve in B and C. They don't delegate me to more basic roles, however. Maybe they think I am overqualified? It seems like most places I interview would be confused as to where they'd potentially place me as I no longer match with anyone. How big of a pay cut are we talking? I'm not one to be really chasing after money, but generally speaking I already am underpaid relative to the average software engineer in my area and still have managed with my salary when I worked. So I'm just looking for a better learning environment. I discuss my previous jobs, and side projects (github.com/ccajas) and a few projects even prompted companies to reach out to me first. But the after the interviews it all falls apart. I haven't made it past phone interviews this year. > I'd be blown away if a candidate came in, acknowledged their deficiencies, and said "I'm doing XYZ to figure it out and I really just need a chance to prove myself" I say that kind of stuff in a lot of interviews, and in my experience, companies don't like it. They prefer someone already fully armed with the knowledge. And usually they get it, because they can. I'm not limiting myself to top companies. I apply to a bunch of local companies doing less glamorous work. I'm not a master of persuasion. But if they give me the benefit of the doubt they notice that I meet their expectations. My company relationships are more of a positive slow burn, so I tend to do better in atypical hiring processes. One last thing I want to point out is that I have noticed a trend among the companies that do hire me. They tend to be the kinds of companies that are desperate to hire people because of high turnaround rate and unstable work environment. If I work for one of them again, I'll just have to put some time aside at work to teach myself better skills and become the mentor for others, instead of seeking a mentor.

bluesnowmonkey 8y ago
> I state that in a lot of interviews. Don't do that. Interviews are for selling yourself. They don't need help turning you down. Figure out ahead of time if you want to work there. Then the interview is 100% about closing the deal. > One last thing I want to point out is that I have noticed a trend among the companies that do hire me. They tend to be the kinds of companies that are desperate to hire people because of high turnaround rate and unstable work environment. Yeah been there. Don't browse job ads! It's all desperate high turnover companies like that. And no recruiters. Take a very active role in deciding what career you want. What specific companies, people, tech do you want to work with? Go find them and make it happen.
- ccajas 8y ago
  >Interviews are for selling yourself. Sales skills are my weakness and as you said, they don't need help turning me down. So best to just avoid situations where sales skills are needed. What are some approaches that don't need it? >Take a very active role in deciding what career you want. If you're telling me not to browse job ads, and also not go with recruiters, can you elaborate on "take a very active role"? If you mean that I should use my network, I'm trying. None of my colleagues want to reply to my message anymore. And my dire financial situation is making it hard to give something to them first.
  - jklein11 8y ago
    Unless there is little or no competition for a position, sales skills are required for any job. This means that you will either need to compete on price and take the job that no one else will take for such a low wage, or develop an extremely niche skillset that you will be recruited for.
stocktech 8y ago
If you're comfortable sharing, what are your shortcomings? How are you doing on the technical questions? What level positions are you applying to? > a few projects even prompted companies to reach out to me first This raises a flag for me. If they're reaching out, they must be convinced of your technical ability. I understand you're frustrated and I don't want to read too much into your post. However, how you're talking about your relationships, being blunt, working at desperate places, it makes me think your interviewing skills need work. A single interview faux pas can remove you from consideration. Being negative or highlighting your faults puts you in a bad light. It's entirely possible to remain positive, but still be honest about your experience. I might have phrased "acknowledging their deficiencies" too literally. To give you an example, I once interviewed someone who couldn't even explain basic terminology. Their github was just OK. Yet, they knew about the company. They spoke intelligently about their projects and seemed excited about what the team does. They knew the technical portion didn't go great and were able to 1) convince me they could learn and 2) positively related their existing experience and prior ability to learn to the requirements of the position. Great junior. For the pay cut, there's too many factors to assume, but in this situation, I'm not paying senior rates for lessor work. You also have no leverage so you'd be at wherever I value the position and my belief in your ability. Again, if you can prove yourself after hiring, I'd bring your pay up to an appropriate place.
- ccajas 8y ago
  I apply mainly to mid-level positions. Probably about 70% of the positions I apply to are mid-level or nondescript, about 10% senior-level, and about 20% junior-level. > A single interview faux pas can remove you from consideration. That's terrible. When you’re on the job, people can judge you all they want but it’s gonna take many minor bad judgements (or a few serious ones) to pile up to make them cut ties and fire you. In an interview, way too many things have to go right. That's not a microcosm of a typical job at all. With regards to professional faux pas, I prefer to follow this: if one mistake is not worth firing someone from their job, it's also not worth rejecting someone for a job. Perhaps I can look into jobs where interviewing skills are not strictly required? I count every real interview I go to as practice, and after practicing with dozens of phone interviews, and about 10 on-sites, it's no longer clicking for me. So there's gotta be another way, I think.

by ccajas 8y ago

bluesnowmonkey 8y ago

> I state that in a lot of interviews. Don't do that. Interviews are for selling yourself. They don't need help turning you down. Figure out ahead of time if you want to work there. Then the interview is 100% about closing the deal. > One last thing I want to point out is that I have noticed a trend among the companies that do hire me. They tend to be the kinds of companies that are desperate to hire people because of high turnaround rate and unstable work environment. Yeah been there. Don't browse job ads! It's all desperate high turnover companies like that. And no recruiters. Take a very active role in deciding what career you want. What specific companies, people, tech do you want to work with? Go find them and make it happen.

ccajas 8y ago
>Interviews are for selling yourself. Sales skills are my weakness and as you said, they don't need help turning me down. So best to just avoid situations where sales skills are needed. What are some approaches that don't need it? >Take a very active role in deciding what career you want. If you're telling me not to browse job ads, and also not go with recruiters, can you elaborate on "take a very active role"? If you mean that I should use my network, I'm trying. None of my colleagues want to reply to my message anymore. And my dire financial situation is making it hard to give something to them first.
- jklein11 8y ago
  Unless there is little or no competition for a position, sales skills are required for any job. This means that you will either need to compete on price and take the job that no one else will take for such a low wage, or develop an extremely niche skillset that you will be recruited for.

stocktech 8y ago

If you're comfortable sharing, what are your shortcomings? How are you doing on the technical questions? What level positions are you applying to? > a few projects even prompted companies to reach out to me first This raises a flag for me. If they're reaching out, they must be convinced of your technical ability. I understand you're frustrated and I don't want to read too much into your post. However, how you're talking about your relationships, being blunt, working at desperate places, it makes me think your interviewing skills need work. A single interview faux pas can remove you from consideration. Being negative or highlighting your faults puts you in a bad light. It's entirely possible to remain positive, but still be honest about your experience. I might have phrased "acknowledging their deficiencies" too literally. To give you an example, I once interviewed someone who couldn't even explain basic terminology. Their github was just OK. Yet, they knew about the company. They spoke intelligently about their projects and seemed excited about what the team does. They knew the technical portion didn't go great and were able to 1) convince me they could learn and 2) positively related their existing experience and prior ability to learn to the requirements of the position. Great junior. For the pay cut, there's too many factors to assume, but in this situation, I'm not paying senior rates for lessor work. You also have no leverage so you'd be at wherever I value the position and my belief in your ability. Again, if you can prove yourself after hiring, I'd bring your pay up to an appropriate place.

ccajas 8y ago
I apply mainly to mid-level positions. Probably about 70% of the positions I apply to are mid-level or nondescript, about 10% senior-level, and about 20% junior-level. > A single interview faux pas can remove you from consideration. That's terrible. When you’re on the job, people can judge you all they want but it’s gonna take many minor bad judgements (or a few serious ones) to pile up to make them cut ties and fire you. In an interview, way too many things have to go right. That's not a microcosm of a typical job at all. With regards to professional faux pas, I prefer to follow this: if one mistake is not worth firing someone from their job, it's also not worth rejecting someone for a job. Perhaps I can look into jobs where interviewing skills are not strictly required? I count every real interview I go to as practice, and after practicing with dozens of phone interviews, and about 10 on-sites, it's no longer clicking for me. So there's gotta be another way, I think.