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Anthony Bourdain and the ‘Silent Epidemic of Male Suicide’
- notadoc 8y agoWhy are 80% of suicides men? Is this a gender issue? Is this a gender equality issue?
- daxorid 8y agoedit: You've all made my point for me. Comment removed, Kommissar.
- wilsonnb2 8y agoAccording to my quick look at wikipedia, consensus seems to be that men choose more lethal means of suicide than women. Women tend to choose things like drug overdoses or wrist cutting, while men tend to choose things like hanging or firearms. Women apparently attempt suicide more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide#Differing_methods_by_gender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide#...
- drblast 8y agoI wonder what the numbers would look like if they were instead "number of people who have attempted suicide one or more times" which would seem to be a more meaningful measurement. If you attempt suicide and succeed you're not going to do it again.
- notadoc 8y agoMen are more "successful" at suicide, whereas women tend to "fail" more at suicide. Interestingly, the suicide attempts are often categorized as a call for help, as specifically stated by the attempters themselves. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/205075 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/... > Of the attempters, 39.3% (3.5) endorsed the statement that they made a serious attempt, and it was only because of luck that they did not die; while 13.3% (2.1) endorsed the statement that they were serious, but knew the method was not foolproof; and the remaining 47.3% (3.9) endorsed the statement that their attempt was a cry for help, and they did not want to die. It makes you wonder, why the gender discrepancy? Is this cultural? Social? Are women simply better at asking for help than men? Are men simply more stubborn than women?
- and0 8y agoIt wasn't even 100 years ago that women couldn't even vote, and equal rights for various minority groups took even longer to catch up. I would argue that those groups at that time must have justifiably felt significantly more "disposable", and yet I don't believe they had astronomical suicide rates to match. The same could be said for the entirety of the third world. Your argument doesn't really make sense in that context. There is a men's mental health epidemic, I'm not trying to diminish that. Where things get tricky is when people lament other groups getting equal representation (politically, culturally, or especially economically) as the reason for it. That is an inherently racist or misogynistic political stance, even when coyly presented devoid of context, because it ultimately must advocate for a return to those inequalities.
- legostormtroopr 8y agoIt wasn’t even 120 years ago that non-wealthy non-landowners could vote either. Women’s suffrage was a close flow on from universal suffrage. It’s historically dishonest to imply that all men had the vote prior to women when that’s not even remotely close to the truth. Likewise, I’m sure Western/European women felt mighty valuable when generations of me, right up until Vietnam in the 70s when men were still addressing involuntary conscription. Nothing says disposable like being shipped off to war by the boatload.
- krapp 8y ago>You've all made my point for me. Comment removed, Kommissar. I don't see a point having been made, but I do see a coward unable to abide criticism of their opinions. Whatever those were.
- uberdru 8y agoNot sure how else you could reasonably frame the question.
- rossdavidh 8y agoShort answer: we don't know. Slightly longer answer: it also varies a lot between races of men, and between countries, so to unravel this completely you'd probably have to figure out how gender, race, and national culture interact, so don't hold your breath for a definitive answer anytime soon. Probably lots of B.S. answers coming your way soon, though.
- uberdru 8y agoI agree. Just interesting that the issue is not proportionally funded. That's perhaps a more interesting question.
- WalterSear 8y agoWe do know. We just don't care about distressed men, so we dissemble, rationalize and pass around the FUD.
- victorhn 8y agoMen have to prove that they are "valuable" more often than women. It depends on other factors, and is a generalisation, but i would say that a woman who is a "failure" may not have as gloomy prospects as if he were a man.
- lostlogin 8y agoHow? Women are under represented in the board room and there is a pay gap. We can argue about the causes, but I don’t think you could say that they are getting valued higher than men in the section of life that employment represents.
- djohnston 8y agothat's not what the commenter is saying.. they're saying that the pressure on men to demonstrate value is higher than it is on women, which when you look at dating habits between men and women becomes obviously clear. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy
- seatdrummer 8y agoAll that says is that men are apparently more valuable for making money and says nothing about the inherent value of men. Men may very well be more valuable to businesses precisely because they need to be in order to have any value to society. The whole women and children first, chivalry, take a bullet for your wife, provide for the family/make a lot of money, draft into military, homeless men not getting access to same welfare as women and children, women have an in group bias towards women and men have a bias towards women as well (Women are wonderful), men getting beat in the street is uncomfortable while a woman getting beat is a major call for action. All of these are value biases towards women and against men. We see it in concern for breast cancer above all other cancers. In general what is socially acceptable is tied to womens' best interest. Once something becomes a women's issue it begins to get solved. Boys are falling behind in academics, they are killing themselves, they work longer hours, they have to stop whining. There are just so many things. I know I've made tons of claims here without sources, but if we are being honest I think we know many of these things are true.
- jdietrich 8y agoThe statistics present an apparent paradox - women are significantly more likely to attempt suicide, but men are significantly more likely to die by suicide. Much of the disparity appears to explained by the choice of method; men are much more likely to choose more lethal methods, leading to a greater number of deaths from a smaller number of attempts. Men seem to be more impulsive and progress more quickly from suicidal thoughts to suicidal behaviour. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21529962 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21529962
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- antisthenes 8y agoLook up sexual dimorphism and start from there.
- uberdru 8y ago"At present, men account for 80 percent of all suicides." Yet, "There’s more funding on research into women’s mental health and the suicidality of women and in young people."
- sp332 8y agoWomen attempt suicide more often than men, as far as anyone can tell. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide#Differing_methods_by_gender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide#... Edit: removed "far more"
- 21 8y ago"attempt"
- notadoc 8y agoAttempting suicide is usually a call for help. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/205075 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/... > Of the attempters, 39.3% (3.5) endorsed the statement that they made a serious attempt, and it was only because of luck that they did not die; while 13.3% (2.1) endorsed the statement that they were serious, but knew the method was not foolproof; and the remaining 47.3% (3.9) endorsed the statement that their attempt was a cry for help, and they did not want to die.
- rgbrenner 8y agoEdit: Ok... I'm just adding some numbers to the parent post because there werent any in the wikipedia link. From the downvotes.. apparently data isn't welcome.
- cup-of-tea 8y agoReported being a very important word here.
- eurticket 8y ago
- aaavl2821 8y agoSuicide is the 10th leading cause of death in the US and causes more deaths than breast cancer (45K vs 40K) and over 6x deaths from HIV (~7K). 90% of suicides are related to mental illness. It also takes younger lives than other disease. When combined with deaths due to "poisoning" (generally due to heroin / opioid overdose), suicide + poisoning cause more lost years of life before age 75 than any other major disease reported by the CDC [1] Imagine how many more people have attempted or considered suicide, and how depressed these people are, and how much lost productivity is and unhappiness is involved in this Really tragic how little attention is paid to this [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus16.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus16.pdf
- wilsonnb2 8y agoIf it makes you feel better, it's only the 10th leading cause of death because we've been extraordinarily successful in combating other illnesses like influenza, gastrointestinal disease, pneumonia, and tuberculosis.
- lostlogin 8y agoSuicide rates have been going in the other direction in many places. Also masked in the stats is the actual rate. Straight road and car off the edge, overdose and various more lingering causes (substance abuse causing liver failure, heart attack etc). Those aren’t necessarily classified as suicide, but they can sure seem like it to those left.
- aaavl2821 8y agoActually, suicide was the number 10 cause of death as far back as 1980 and deaths from suicide have increased 64% since then compared to 42% increase in US population. Deaths from pneumonia and influenza have been roughly flat on absolute value basis though decreased in death rate given the increase in population Source is in a chart in this blog post I wrote, source data from CDC: https://newbio.tech/blog/vc_basics_1.html https://newbio.tech/blog/vc_basics_1.html
- finnthehuman 8y ago>Really tragic how little attention is paid to this Meh. I’d rather have the silence when the alternate is repeating useless memes at eachother and thinking it’s more productive than the silence. Suicide is like mass shootings in one way... the media and popular conversation are only equipped to make the problem worse.
- cpr 8y agoRight, he commits suicide just a few days after tweeting that he has information which will put Hillary in jail (since deleted), and that he's being harassed by Hilary's goons (earlier). Nothing suspicious about that.
- Jarb 8y agodo you have any proof of these claims?
- AdamM12 8y agoThis is a hot take. Was it suicide by two bullets to the back of the head?
- notadoc 8y agoIs this HackerNews or the fringe comment sections of the loony tunes web? What on earth is happening to the comment quality around here?
- skosch 8y agoBefore anyone takes this seriously: this claim is total and utter nonsense. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/anthony-bourdain-killed-by-clinton-operatives/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/anthony-bourdain-killed-by...
- fzeroracer 8y agoWhy would you perpetuate obvious bullshit? Not just that, but obvious bullshit taking advantage of someone else's death to push an utterly repugnant agenda.
- kindarooster 8y agoWhite masculinity is broken. We broke it ourselves via the Patriarchy. Now we kill ourselves a bunch and go out and commit terrorist acts with our guns. Men need to stop blaming other people and society for their problems. You dominated society. It's your fault. Take responsibility to fix it and stop acting like you are being marginalized by others.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- notadoc 8y agoThis is a wildly sexist and racist comment, why do you feel it's appropriate to stereotype like that? Do you think that is helpful in furthering an important discussion?
- jrs95 8y agoIronically this isn't far off from things Bourdain has said himself, on his show. I'd try and find an exact quote or clip but I don't have access to YouTube at the moment.
- dang 8y agoPlease don't post ideological rants to HN. That's a particularly bad variant of the flamewars we're trying to avoid here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- raven105x 8y agoIt took the death of someone catering to diversity, women and minorities to even bring this subject into any measure of media spotlight. When you classify issues into "trendy" and "real", the disproportionate focus distribution between the two reveals a key metric of society.
- pjc50 8y ago> focused on catering I don't think I'd describe a popular food writer as "focused on catering"!
- louhong 8y agoNational Suicide Prevention Lifeline Call 1-800-273-8255 Putting this here in the event anyone needs it.
- peterburkimsher 8y agoYou're not alone. If you don't know what to say, don't ask "What happened?" - that focuses on the problem. Say "Are you OK?" If they trust you, they'll open up. Suicide is shut down. Moving country is reboot. There is a reboot option. If life doesn't work out elsewhere, I might try to become a monk first, before trying to end my own life. Or taking dangerous occupations, such as war zone journalism. There's nothing else to fear when death is no longer a threat. I haven't yet tried all those alternatives, so I'll do that first before making a permanent decision. I'd still rather commit suicide than be forced to murder someone else though (e.g. military service), so I hope that no government forces weapons into my hands.
- uberdru 8y agoThis is particularly relevant to Anthony Bourdain's case. If you recall from his earliest shows he was always talking about throwing in the towel and becoming an ex-pat in viet nam or wherever he happened to be.
- FireBeyond 8y agoOne thing that struck a nerve with me. If you watch Season 11 of Parts Unknown, you can definitely see a man who is at times struggling with himself and who he is, blatantly, openly so at points. For all the episodes where he is having a ball, it definitely paints a contrast, and a tragic one at that. His return to Borneo was rather profound, for me. He seemed to be battling demons, be it substance or other.
- kjeetgill 8y agoI've never seen the show, is there a clip you can point me to? I'm curious how apparent it was.
- pjc50 8y agoIt's a difficult subject. I've lost one close friend to suicide, and one acquaintance; I know a huge swathe of people who've suffered from depression and achieved varying levels of help for it. From the comments in this thread already I don't think HN is really equipped to handle the conversation. I would say not only that if you're struggling, you should reach out, but that people should "reach in" more and check in on their friends, especially those who seem to be suffering in silence.
- uberdru 8y agoI agree. It's ultimately a policy question. Why is funding disproportionate?
- aaavl2821 8y agoI think the "reach in" comment is really important. But I feel like its hard to be aware that this is something people should do, or which friends need attention, or how to broach such a sensitive topic. I know that FB, apple, google can detect suicidal thoughts with some reasonable level of accuracy and that some of the leaders felt obliged to do something, but not sure what came of it? Seemed like it was mostly for acute situations rather than people at risk who could be helped by a periodic check in. Would be cool if these companies could somehow non invasively encourage ppl close to someone at risk to check on them Also think that primary care is in a decent position to handle monitoring of potential suicidality, although the PCPs ive talked to are incredibly scared of liability concerns related to this...
- DoreenMichele 8y agoThis is a really difficult and emotional subject that will hit a nerve for a lot of people. I'm a woman and I am quite open about having attempted suicide in my teens and about ongoing struggles with being prone to being suicidal, though I don't really suffer depression. I don't think I'm really the right person to try to lead this discussion about male suicide, at least not today, not now. But I will ask that people try to say something substantive, per HN guidelines. It's a hard subject that can easily go sideways and frequently does. That doesn't mean it has to. I don't think it is really helpful to implore people to "get help" while making it clear you don't really want to talk about it in earnest here and now. Having spent a lot of time suicidal, my view is that "Well, yeah, sure. Everyone would like me to get better and most people don't want to deal with it. That feels to me like a very dismissive not my problem, go get your broken self fixed, but don't bother me with it kind of position." I really rather dislike seeing comments of that sort.
- kjeetgill 8y agoI agree with you. Sincere interest in a persons situation can't be replaced by an anonymous phone call. It is hard though, I think the reflex to "implore people to get help" doesn't come from a place of "not my problem" but rather "I'm not a professional I don't know what you should do, but I suspect here's someone who might." Like you, I was fairly open, well before and after, about thoughts of and attempts at suicide. I was very fortunate. I had a great network of people in my life who were always there for me in every capacity. But even though they were there for me, they simply couldn't really relate. It wasn't until nearly eight or nine years later that they found themselves similarly ensnared. There was an "Aha" moment where they (unfortunately) connected the dots. I was stuck for as long as I could remember (think elementary school) and just three years free from it I have trouble relating to the feeling anymore. To anyone out there trying to help somebody: don't be afraid of being unable to understand or relate. If you can, just be there. Trying to relate or caring to be present is 80% of the game. A hotline can't replace that. Fun story: The one time I called a hotline, I was in a particularly acute spiral. I don't know know if this was on purpose but the sheer awkwardness of that conversation probably saved my life. Hearing myself try to explain my the situation and it just coming out of my mouth like bad, angsty, incoherent teenage poetry. On the other end of the line was a person who genuinely sounded like they wanted to help but couldn't make sense of why I was so worked up but tried so hard to understand. I think I hung up mumbling "You know what, never mind." and hung up cringing.
- davvolun 8y agoTangential... I'm still not ready to accept incels as people essentially needing assistance, but: https://www.vox.com/2018/6/20/17314846/incel-support-group-therapy-black-pill-mental-health https://www.vox.com/2018/6/20/17314846/incel-support-group-t... I mean, if you react to depression with misogyny and by lashing out at women, I find it hard to pull up compassion for you, but at the same time, is this because our society is failing to treat depression or emotional damage properly ("getting sex for incels," via prostitution or whatever, is a complete non-starter -- the very last thing we need in our society is more impetus on women to just close your eyes and "do it")?
- Shorel 8y agoIn my opinion it is very disingenuous to talk about suicide and ignore the medications these people were taking. In many cases the medications have been reported to be correlated with a strong increase of suicidal tendencies when interrupted abruptly or without warning. This is the case for some prescribed anxiolytics, and also for the drug Bourdain was allegedly taking to combat his tobacco addiction.