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Tesla sues ex-employee for hacking, theft, and leaking to the press
- 645645645 8y agoi found this two blogs http://mawazo.tk http://mawazo.tk and http//cnn.com
- dekrg 8y agoData theft is an pretty interesting way to frame giving information to the media.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- function_seven 8y agoIf we take the complaint at face value, it seems like a straightforward description. Tripp is alleged to have installed software on other employees’ computers to extract the information. Also, giving information to the media isn’t necessarily an honest act of whistleblowing. Depends on what you’re exposing and if it’s accurate in the first place.
- Someone1234 8y agoIf he genuinely believes what he is saying is true (i.e. potentially dangerous batteries in Model 3's) then I'd say that is absolutely an honest act of whistleblowing. But that's the rub, does he believe that or not, or was it as Tesla contends a lie to hurt an employer that passed him over for promotion? The court case is definitely one to watch, particularly if he can provide evidence of his claims.
- rory096 8y agoAs I understand it, genuine protected whistleblowing would require a report to the appropriate regulatory body. Disclosing a substantial amount of proprietary non-safety-related information would also tend to undermine the case for protection.
- icelancer 8y ago>> If he genuinely believes what he is saying is true (i.e. potentially dangerous batteries in Model 3's) then I'd say that is absolutely an honest of whistleblowing. Whistleblowing is not simply just telling random people, or media contacts, inner workings of companies that are protected and trade secrets. That's not how that works. There are specific ways to do it to protect yourself legally, or you can leak to Wikileaks or media outlets using TOR and other methods to keep yourself safe, but the latter method is illegal while the former method is legal, if not nearly as effective.
- ysavir 8y agoTrue, it's straightforward, but knowing Musk's penchant for playing the media, it does come off as an attempt to liken this event to the Uber/Waymo affair. Which is not a fitting comparison.
- ntaylor 8y agoHe allegedly transmitted photography of Tesla's internal manufacturing systems. For a company that prides itself in it's manufacturing process (even if it isn't as-promised), it seem like this could even be perceived as IP theft.
- jonknee 8y agoTheir secret method of poorly making way fewer cars than they promised will be out!
- empath75 8y agoI’m sure their competitors are falling over each other to learn how to fail to build cars.
- kjksf 8y agoDaimler (parent of Mercedes) reportedly rented Model X and disassembled it to learn how it works. https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a14106521/competitor-tore-apart-a-rented-tesla-to-learn-its-secrets/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a14106521/competitor-t... Munro & Associates did a complete Tesla 3 teardown and disassembly in order to sell what they've learned to Tesla competitors for hundreds of thousands of dollars (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpCrkO1x-Qo&t=4828s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpCrkO1x-Qo&t=4828s) So did some German engineering company (https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/19/tesla-model-3-stuns-german-engineers-wonders/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/19/tesla-model-3-stuns-ger...). Apparently there are plenty of companies interested in how Tesla's cars are made.
- InternetOfStuff 8y ago> Daimler (parent of Mercedes) reportedly rented Model X and disassembled it to learn how it works. > Apparently there are plenty of companies interested in how Tesla's cars are made. Disassembing a rental car is ..uh.. rude, but other than that this is completely ordinary, and not even done in secret. When I worked at BMW, we once went down to a big room where an entire VW (Golf?) was disassembled and on display, all its components laid out on long rows of tables. I can't remember any access restrictions on that room -- it was just a place you went to look at how other engineers had solved particular problems, learn new tricks, or get inspired. It's essentially the code reading of the mechanical engineering world.
- gwern 8y agoThe lawsuit also accuses him of fabricating/editing the data in question before sending to the media...
- makomk 8y agoI think, if I'm following the media reporting correctly, that they're disputing something which he didn't technically say. The BI article says that "In February, a misprogrammed robot that handles battery modules repeatedly punctured through the plastic housing (called a clamshell) and into some battery cells, the employee said, adding that instead of scrapping all the modules, some were fixed with adhesive and put back on the manufacturing line". That is, the modules were fixed and reused rather than being scrapped. Tesla claims this is a lie because no punctured cells were ever used in vehicles. This would be true even if - as the article claims - modules were punctured, the battery cells were damaged, and those modules were fixed and put into cars rather than being scrapped, just so long as any obviously punctured cells were replaced in the process. The article is rather vague on that crucial detail. In fact, Tesla's claim would be true even if damaged cells were shipping in actual Model 3s and they knew they were, so long as those cells weren't punctured.
- kbenson 8y agoWhen one doublespeak meets another, the offspring is often a clusterfuck.
- londons_explore 8y agoIt also conveniently plays on the public's perception that a punctured battery cell is a terrible thing. In reality, a lithium ion cell with a small hole will slowly have the electrolyte evaporate, the internal resistance will increase, and the cell will stop being useful. If that's one cell out of 10,000 on a car, it's no big deal.
- xl1001 8y agoPerhaps there should be a "lawsuits against ex employees" section on the Tesla Wikipedia page.
- Someone1234 8y agoSo has law enforcement been contacted or not? If what Tesla claims he did (data theft, sabotage) were true, that's definitely violating federal law. If they choose not to ask for e.g. FBI assistance, I'd be curious to know their reasoning.
- hermitdev 8y agoHaving worked at a hedge fund that suffered a data theft, I'd expect the criminal charges, if any, to come several months from now. It takes time for the police to build their case, collect evidence, interview possible witnesses or suspects, etc. All that happens before formal charges are filed. A lawsuit can be filed immediately.
- Someone1234 8y agoThe question was if law enforcement had been contacted, not if criminal charges would be brought by them if they had.
- throwaway427 8y agoI'm not sure random HN commenters have the answer you are looking for here...
- bjl 8y agoWell, as of yesterday at least, the PD said on Twitter that no reports had been made.
- ksherlock 8y agoSince it happened in Nevada, the Fremont PD wouldn't be involved.
- hermitdev 8y agoIt could very well be that Tesla'd IT is working to ensure everything is secure amd backed up before they bring in the heavy hand of the law. I wouldnt trust law enforcement to come in, not just seize hard drives for forensic analysis without having a copy to 1) continue work and 2) inadvertently alter evidence. DOJ method is remove drives, that could you affect production or development depending on the drives removed. Either one could be a huge cost suck.
- sunstone 8y agoIt would be interesting to know if this employee was also shorting Tesla stock at the same time he was leaking these allegations.
- Cshelton 8y agoMost likely not directly. It is possible though that he was wired a certain amount of money from a off shore account tied to a fund, practically untraceable, or paid in crypto. Part of that payment though probably includes something like, if caught, you have to give a made up reason for doing it, or otherwise your family won't get the money... or worse things may happen to your family. This kind of stuff is real and does happen. With the kind of money at play here, people will do anything. It's the old mafia style in the modern era.
- telchar 8y agoYou're being down-voted but it would be foolish to ignore the possibility you bring up, especially when we consider that Tesla has competitors based in countries where the rule of law is weaker than it is in the US. Certainly if he's going to break the law and exfiltrate data it would be a small hurdle to try to profit on top of that.
- s73v3r_ 8y agoWithout evidence, this is just another conspiracy theory.
- compcoffee 8y ago>It would be interesting to know if this employee was also shorting Tesla stock at the same time he was leaking these allegations. I'm skeptical that some individual blue-collar worker would risk his financial well-being and possibly freedom to make a few thousand dollars from possibly causing financial harm to Tesla and causing the stock to drop some. Seems like a stretch to me. If the suit is as alleged (passing false information to journalists) he's an attention seeking low-life. What is with the obsession with "shorts"? I've never seen so much over-reaction to short selling in my life.
- rory096 8y agoLawsuit is available here: DocumentCloud https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4529155-Gov-Uscourts-Nvd-131251-1-0-2.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4529155-Gov-Uscourts... or Scribd https://www.scribd.com/document/382194076/Tesla-lawsuit https://www.scribd.com/document/382194076/Tesla-lawsuit (17 line summary is on page 2) It's based substantially on the "scrap material" leak to Business Insider published June 4: http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-3-scrap-waste-high-gigafactory-2018-5 http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-3-scrap-waste-hig...
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- hoorayimhelping 8y agoCan't copy/paste but that lawsuit says that he admitted to writing software that stole information and for trying to hire others to do the same when confronted about it with evidence. As a layman, that seems pretty damming to me, but who knows, it may not mean anything. I wonder if he had an opportunity to speak with a lawyer before admitting that he did that.
- jbeckham 8y agoBeing that this is a civil suit, he has no right to counsel so anything he said can be used against him. Admitting anything was a dumb if he was planning on defending against a lawsuit.
- spiderPig 8y agoSeems a little far fetched for a process technician to make “direct code changes to operating system code” though
- fragsworth 8y agoA saboteur would be more sophisticated than a real process technician. Maybe Tesla's internal security isn't that great?
- taf2 8y agoInside jobs are pretty hard to defend against
- bastawhiz 8y agoExactly. I think you'd be hard pressed to find many companies that employ systems sophisticated enough to catch internal sabotage without immense amounts of false positives. "What the hell do you think you're doing??" "I just wanted to play DOTA"
- Ftuuky 8y agoCorrect. I accidentally triggered an internal "hacking-prevention" system at the investment bank where I work by simply installing Anaconda. Having a cyber security agent coming to my desk and demanding I log off my machine immediately was really scary, especially considering it was my first week there.
- boardguy 8y agoSaboteur, whistleblower, fraudster... it’s a thin line
- mlindner 8y agoNo its not. If you're making stuff up you're not a whistleblower.
- retbull 8y agoSaboteur's break things, whistleblowers expose illegal or immoral behavior, fraudsters commit fraud. What exactly is thin about those lines?
- adrr 8y agoLeaking information about the inefficiency of Tesla's production line could be construed as whistleblowing. Tesla is a public company and shareholders have right to know of issues that can have an impact on the viability of the company.
- zamalek 8y agoTesla claims that some of the information is false (specifically the bit about punctured cells being installed). Whether this is true or not, the manner in which the disclosure occurred doesn't seem to be in the spirit of remedying the situation. It was to harm the company. Whistleblowing is not about doing harm, it is about preventing it. Say you dated someone at work and it didn't work out. Say you then went on a tirade around the office indicating exactly what their problems were (true or not), even to people who have no interest in dating that person. More accurately, you'd also pass off any and all benign details (because the installed software was indiscriminately passing off information). Would that be whistleblowing or would that be slander? Say that a good friend indicated that they were interested and you warned them away in private - completely different story.
- adrr 8y agoWhistleblowing is ultimately harming the company and usually done by people trying to sabotage the company. Doesn't mean stuff leak isn't the truth. This guy leaked official documents to Business Insider that related to series 3 production and cost to produce batteries. Looking at the Tesla's accelerating cash burn(1.1 billion last quarter), he was being at least partially truthful that production costs are rising.
- 745824824525 8y agoi found this two blogs http://mawazo.tk http://mawazo.tk and http//cnn.com
- mlindner 8y agoGlad to hear they're suing him. The interesting question is if he was hired by some outside agency to join Tesla to do this. He was only at the company for 3-4 months before "complaining of not getting a raise". That's a very short period of time. My bet is that is that's a lie to hide the real reason. Hopefully they get access to his call history to see what companies he communicated with. Also shame on the author for Editorializing the title. The true article title is "Tesla sues ex-employee for hacking, theft, and leaking to the press"
- wilsonnb2 8y agoSeems more like a conspiracy theory than an interesting question to me.
- CalChris 8y agoGiven that the civil suit says that Tripp transferred that information to third parties, yes, this is beginning to sound like a conspiracy. There are 5 elements of a conspiracy. 1. 2 or more persons 2. intention 3. make an agreement 4. to violate the law 5. act in furtherance of that agreement Conspiracy is a crime and so the Feds would be responsible for investigating and then charging that. This is only a civil suit. But yes, it sounds like a conspiracy. IANALBICLSUAWATNG
- wilsonnb2 8y agoThat's not really what the term "conspiracy theory" means. It means "a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event". In this case, an unknown company or government agency is the influential organization behind planting this guy as an employee at Tesla to steal data. Anyways, the actual wording, I think, is "he also wrote computer code to periodically export Tesla’s data off its network and into the hands of third parties" which is vague. It could mean that he exported the data off of the network and then gave it to third parties (news outlets). It could also just mean that he uploaded the data to an AWS server, or to his Google Drive account. It certainly doesn't imply that he was hired by an outside agency specifically for this purpose, which is what the original comment was wondering about.
- u1234567 8y agoi found this two blogs http://mawazo.tk http://mawazo.tk and htytp//cnn.com
- gamblor956 8y agoScary to learn that Tesla's problems are so bad that they're pinning all their execution issues on a single employee who wasn't even around for most of them. Edit: As someone else wondered...why does this guy even have the access to the systems necessary to have allegedly carry out these purported acts of sabotage? Is Tesla's security that lax? Why wasn't this detected immediately? What else does this say about their inability to control their own internal processes? Edit 2: Deleted first paragraph. Turns out that Musk accused this employee of sabotage predating the employee's employment but Tesla isn't suing him for it.
- gwern 8y ago> Curiously, Tesla is suing this employee for many issues that arose or relate to the time before he was hired. No, it's not. Can you point to the line in the lawsuit where they make any claim of that sort? The accusations seem very specific to his own actions.
- retrett44 8y agoblog http://mawazo.tk#--466 http://mawazo.tk#--466
- Animats 8y agoThis is a desperation move by Musk. Nothing in the complaint alleges interference with Tesla production. Just that the ex-employee leaked some data on Tesla's internal screwups. Yet Musk claimed this was an excuse for Tesla missing their 5000 units/week goal yet again. (Actual production is about 1500 units/week right now.[1]) Also, this is someone at the battery factory in Nevada, not the auto plant in Fremont. So this is totally unrelated to the auto plant problems. Tesla will have a hard time showing actual losses from this. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/
- protonimitate 8y agoKind of off topic - but how much hands-on would someone like Musk have in this situation? Wouldn't the Tesla legal team be making the calls on this one, or is Musk the final shot caller on legal issues like this?
- lostlogin 8y agoYou would hope that the CEO had a say.
- jdavis703 8y agoIt really depends on the management style of the CEO. I've worked with CEOs who took great pains to make sure information and orders traveled down the chain of command. I've worked with others who have no problem getting a low-level person to do something.
- zhail 8y agoFound the short
- tomp 8y ago> Yet Musk claimed this was an excuse for Tesla missing their 5000 units/week goal yet again. Citation?
- gamblor956 8y ago
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- 8868678 8y agoabsolutly https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17355346 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17355346
- lafar6502 8y agoi hope this stupid company goes down the shitter eventually and takes all its bullshit and self-importance with it. just tired of all this bs, accusations, threats , unfulfilled promises and plain lies. why can’t they just shut up and make cars like everybody else?
- dang 8y agoCould you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? You've done it a lot and it's not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- lafar6502 8y agowell if unsubstantive claims from some CEOs are reported and discussed here as if they were a reality then i will defend our right to call bullshit.
- unit91 8y agoFrom the court filing: > Beyond the misconduct to which Tripp admitted, he also wrote computer code to periodically export Tesla’s data off its network and into the hands of third parties. His hacking software was operating on three separate computer systems of other individuals at Tesla so that the data would be exported even after he left the company and so that those individuals would be falsely implicated as guilty parties. Good grief, that's nasty. https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4529155/Gov-Uscourts-Nvd-131251-1-0-2.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4529155/Gov-Uscou...
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- sverige 8y agoIt reminds me of the old "IT employee gets revenge" stories that were so popular ten or twenty years ago.
- bpd1069 8y agoHe wasn't even there a year. Hired, not promoted, hack system, leak to the press, exfiltrate data (automated and distributed). Doesn't look like your typical anything to me.
- kamaal 8y ago>>He wasn't even there a year. How do you expect to join a company and get promoted within an year? This feels like an unfair expectation to even begin with.
- therealdrag0 8y agoDefinitely possible if you start low and have potential. I've gotten promoted or raises every 6-9 mo for the last 4 years (since starting my first job). "Your young with little experience..." >>> "Oh wow you're actually good at things! Have a promotion."
- 8y ago
- AdamM12 8y agoSeems like there will be a CFAA charge right around the corner
- jiveturkey 8y agoCue Dr Evil ... one million dollars!! But srsly, one million? That shows that there was no demonstrable loss to Tesla, that this suit is purely punitive on a personal level.
- Waterluvian 8y agoHow would you even quantify damages of that kind? Should it be zero if they don't know how much? Or a billion?
- noselasd 8y agoNo, it is not purely on a personal level, it is also a deterrent towards other employees.
- jxramos 8y agoSounds like the accused Martin Tripp is about to have a bad trip
- nodesocket 8y agoIt's funny the HN post and comments on Monday were critical of Elon, saying he's overacting, being "anti-ceo" and fear mongering. It certainly seems like he was rightfully critical and agressive on Monday now that all the facts have come out.
- CPLX 8y agoMost people do not consider one side of a lawsuit to be "all the facts"
- trumped 8y agoIsn't Tesla supposed to be really open? ie: "All Our Patent Are Belong To You | Tesla" *1 1. https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you
- catherinezng 8y agoMaybe another perspective is that Tripp is a whistleblower. See: "But Tripp told CNN he was fired within the last week and sued by Tesla because he was trying to warn investors and the public about problems at the electric carmaker. He said that he discovered that 1,100 damaged battery modules were installed in Model 3 cars that are on the road today. He said that he was also concerned about excessive scrap that is being stored in a dangerous manner on Tesla's property in Nevada that will be expensive to safely dispose of in the future. And he claims that Tesla inflated the number of Model 3's it made when it said it had built 2,020 of the cars in the seven days prior to a much anticipated April 3 report. Tripp said the actual number is closer to 1,900." http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/20/technology/tesla-sues-employee/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/20/technology/tesla-sues-employ...
- masonic 8y agohe was trying to warn investors Whistleblowers don't warn investors, they contact regulators.