5 ms·

TFA might be right about Rails but completely wrong about Spring. Spring is absolutely a web framework--templates and all. With Spring Boot and modern Java, the

TFA might be right about Rails but completely wrong about Spring. Spring is absolutely a web framework--templates and all. With Spring Boot and modern Java, the productivity is probably in same ballpark too.

1ba9115454 8y ago
There is a difference. Spring boot is not opinionated about how to do templates, persistance and DB migrations. This means you have to go away and do some research to get your stack running. This was enough to put me off.
- Traubenfuchs 8y ago
  templates: spring-mvc offers first class support for Thymeleaf, Freemarker, Mustache and Groovy Templates. Is having 4 equal choices too much for you? Spring seems to endorse Thymeleaf. persistance: spring-data, the JPA/Hibernate based library for SQL access appears to be very opinionated and is very simple to fully understand. I have never used MongoDB, but spring-data-mongodb is probably of equal quality. DB migrations: What do you mean?
  - vorg 8y ago
    > having 4 equal choices Support for Groovy Templates is legacy and not as equal as the other choices. Groovy is now Apache Groovy, and on the decline.
thanatos_dem 8y ago
What is TFA? It’s always meant “Two Factor Auth” for me, but this is the second thread I’ve seen today that’s using it like it’s an acronym for a person.
- baconomatic 8y ago
  "The Fucking Article", sort of like RTFM (Read The Fucking Manual)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- merrywhether 8y ago
  “The fucking article”, from the retort RTFA (“Read ...”), itself derived from RTFM (“... manual”). https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/RTFA https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/RTFA
  - twic 8y ago
    And, as with the manual, it can also be fine rather than fucking. I tend to read it as the former when there isn't an R in front, and as the latter when there is.
- andysomniac 8y ago
  I believe it stands for 'the featured article'
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
Traubenfuchs 8y ago
Depends on what you mean when you say "Spring". You can use the DI and config management container spring-core by itself. There are actually THREE web-frameworks: spring-webflux, spring-web and spring-web-mvc. Webflux is the new framework for "reactive HTTP", spring-web contains the conventional web/REST-server capabilities and spring-web-mvc offers mvc functionality with templates and depends on spring-web. Correct me if I am wrong.
realusername 8y ago
> the productivity is probably in same ballpark too. You are still missing Turbolinks, the rails console, JPA is nowhere as good as Active Record, rails scaffolding, Rspec, Devise, then you need to setup migrations... I could add a lot of other items, but no it's nowhere near rails yet. I've never found anything approaching rails for the speed of coding (but not the speed of execution unfortunately :/). Rails templates is a very very small part of what makes it so quick to write code.
- vajrabum 8y ago
  My main point and the only reason I mentioned templates was that Spring Boot is in fact a web application framework and a productive one. If your previous experience was with older versions of Spring or Spring Boot or you weren't using IntelliJ (or STS Eclipse if you must) to build your scaffolding and do your debugging then you might want to take another look. Turbolinks is a cool hack! I think I agree about migrations. Flyway is useful but not as clean or easy as ActiveRecord and I think that depends on Ruby's dynamic nature so it would be hard to replicate.
- twic 8y ago
  > JPA is nowhere as good as Active Record You surely meant to write that the other way round.
  - realusername 8y ago
    No I really mean it that way. I've never tried an ORM which is as good as Active Record. Also the ORM should be coupled to migrations to be anything as powerful as Active Record. Edit: JPA is usable yes, most ORM nowadays are quite good anyway, it's just that Active Record is still always one step above, it's a pleasure to work with.

1ba9115454 8y ago

There is a difference. Spring boot is not opinionated about how to do templates, persistance and DB migrations. This means you have to go away and do some research to get your stack running. This was enough to put me off.

Traubenfuchs 8y ago
templates: spring-mvc offers first class support for Thymeleaf, Freemarker, Mustache and Groovy Templates. Is having 4 equal choices too much for you? Spring seems to endorse Thymeleaf. persistance: spring-data, the JPA/Hibernate based library for SQL access appears to be very opinionated and is very simple to fully understand. I have never used MongoDB, but spring-data-mongodb is probably of equal quality. DB migrations: What do you mean?
- vorg 8y ago
  > having 4 equal choices Support for Groovy Templates is legacy and not as equal as the other choices. Groovy is now Apache Groovy, and on the decline.

thanatos_dem 8y ago

What is TFA? It’s always meant “Two Factor Auth” for me, but this is the second thread I’ve seen today that’s using it like it’s an acronym for a person.

baconomatic 8y ago
"The Fucking Article", sort of like RTFM (Read The Fucking Manual)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
merrywhether 8y ago
“The fucking article”, from the retort RTFA (“Read ...”), itself derived from RTFM (“... manual”). https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/RTFA https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/RTFA
- twic 8y ago
  And, as with the manual, it can also be fine rather than fucking. I tend to read it as the former when there isn't an R in front, and as the latter when there is.
andysomniac 8y ago
I believe it stands for 'the featured article'
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

Traubenfuchs 8y ago

Depends on what you mean when you say "Spring". You can use the DI and config management container spring-core by itself. There are actually THREE web-frameworks: spring-webflux, spring-web and spring-web-mvc. Webflux is the new framework for "reactive HTTP", spring-web contains the conventional web/REST-server capabilities and spring-web-mvc offers mvc functionality with templates and depends on spring-web. Correct me if I am wrong.

realusername 8y ago

> the productivity is probably in same ballpark too. You are still missing Turbolinks, the rails console, JPA is nowhere as good as Active Record, rails scaffolding, Rspec, Devise, then you need to setup migrations... I could add a lot of other items, but no it's nowhere near rails yet. I've never found anything approaching rails for the speed of coding (but not the speed of execution unfortunately :/). Rails templates is a very very small part of what makes it so quick to write code.

vajrabum 8y ago
My main point and the only reason I mentioned templates was that Spring Boot is in fact a web application framework and a productive one. If your previous experience was with older versions of Spring or Spring Boot or you weren't using IntelliJ (or STS Eclipse if you must) to build your scaffolding and do your debugging then you might want to take another look. Turbolinks is a cool hack! I think I agree about migrations. Flyway is useful but not as clean or easy as ActiveRecord and I think that depends on Ruby's dynamic nature so it would be hard to replicate.
twic 8y ago
> JPA is nowhere as good as Active Record You surely meant to write that the other way round.
- realusername 8y ago
  No I really mean it that way. I've never tried an ORM which is as good as Active Record. Also the ORM should be coupled to migrations to be anything as powerful as Active Record. Edit: JPA is usable yes, most ORM nowadays are quite good anyway, it's just that Active Record is still always one step above, it's a pleasure to work with.