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>However these sudo-democratic want-be centralized state is totally against the history of European has already caused a endless serious of disaster and mismana

by ginko 8y ago

>However these sudo-democratic want-be centralized state is totally against the history of European has already caused a endless serious of disaster and mismanagement. How is the EU particularly undemocratic? I'm Austrian and most of the European branches map relatively well to our own federal structure. (Nationalrat -> European parliament, Government -> Commission, Bundesrat -> Council(although that one has more power)) The reason for stupid laws like this one is that conservative parties are currently dominating the European Parliament and national governments, so a direct result of people voting. And I don't see how being in Switzerland will save you from any of this since this law will almost certainly also apply to Switzerland if it comes into effect. Only difference being that you don't have any say on the matter.

nickik 8y ago
For me a democracy polity should be more then a structure and the ability to vote. I would wager that most people in the EU have never even heard about this fundamental change to their lives, or even speak the language to understand the debate. Look at how the EU handled the economic crisis. Nothing democratic about the decision making. But many of the decisions still implemented under EU cover. The European parliament should not easily be allowed to make laws for everybody. Many countries didn't even get to vote popularly if they wanted to join. > And I don't see how being in Switzerland will save you from any of this since this law will almost certainly also apply to Switzerland if it comes into effect. Only difference being that you don't have any say on the matter. I was not talking about this one law, but rather in general.
- akie 8y ago
  > I was not talking about this one law, but rather in general. I think this holds true in the general case as well.
growlist 8y ago
What is your view on the EU's typically hostile response to democracy when voters prove disobedient? I'm thinking for example of Ireland being forced to rerun the vote on the Nice treaty, and the ramming through of the European Constitution after French and Dutch rejection by renaming it the Lisbon Treaty.
- ginko 8y ago
  The Lisbon treaty is NOT the Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe. This is a common falsehood. The TCE would have been further reaching, establishing a directly elected president of the European Commission for instance. It's kind of funny considering how all the anti-EU people that voted against the constitution are the same people complaining about the EU's lack of democracy.
  - growlist 8y ago
    That's one example, and opinions differ in spite of your assertion. What about the other examples?
  - nickik 8y ago
    I don't think the EU would be particularly good if it were significantly more democratic. But even so, it not being democratic is hardly a point in its favor. The constitution of Europe would not have fixed most of the problems and would have introduced more of them.
vsl 8y ago
> How is the EU particularly undemocratic? It is democracy on paper only. For a functional democracy, oversight is crucial. That requires press attention so that people are aware of how their representatives follow their will. You never hear about directives in the works, there’s too much of it, and it happens far away. Most of it is prepared by committees and The EU parliament just rubberstamps it. Most of the time, people learn about new legislative when it is a done deal. You only here about the worst offenders, like this one. And even that is not a topic of mainstream coverage. Our bubble writes about it. The public in general remains unaware. How is that a well working democracy?

by ginko 8y ago

nickik 8y ago

For me a democracy polity should be more then a structure and the ability to vote. I would wager that most people in the EU have never even heard about this fundamental change to their lives, or even speak the language to understand the debate. Look at how the EU handled the economic crisis. Nothing democratic about the decision making. But many of the decisions still implemented under EU cover. The European parliament should not easily be allowed to make laws for everybody. Many countries didn't even get to vote popularly if they wanted to join. > And I don't see how being in Switzerland will save you from any of this since this law will almost certainly also apply to Switzerland if it comes into effect. Only difference being that you don't have any say on the matter. I was not talking about this one law, but rather in general.

akie 8y ago
> I was not talking about this one law, but rather in general. I think this holds true in the general case as well.

growlist 8y ago

What is your view on the EU's typically hostile response to democracy when voters prove disobedient? I'm thinking for example of Ireland being forced to rerun the vote on the Nice treaty, and the ramming through of the European Constitution after French and Dutch rejection by renaming it the Lisbon Treaty.

ginko 8y ago
The Lisbon treaty is NOT the Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe. This is a common falsehood. The TCE would have been further reaching, establishing a directly elected president of the European Commission for instance. It's kind of funny considering how all the anti-EU people that voted against the constitution are the same people complaining about the EU's lack of democracy.
- growlist 8y ago
  That's one example, and opinions differ in spite of your assertion. What about the other examples?
- nickik 8y ago
  I don't think the EU would be particularly good if it were significantly more democratic. But even so, it not being democratic is hardly a point in its favor. The constitution of Europe would not have fixed most of the problems and would have introduced more of them.

vsl 8y ago

> How is the EU particularly undemocratic? It is democracy on paper only. For a functional democracy, oversight is crucial. That requires press attention so that people are aware of how their representatives follow their will. You never hear about directives in the works, there’s too much of it, and it happens far away. Most of it is prepared by committees and The EU parliament just rubberstamps it. Most of the time, people learn about new legislative when it is a done deal. You only here about the worst offenders, like this one. And even that is not a topic of mainstream coverage. Our bubble writes about it. The public in general remains unaware. How is that a well working democracy?