5 ms·

FreeOffice wasn't an option? Open Source Office? Anything-other-than-LibreOffice? OpenOffice is something that I can explain to my mother when I install it f

FreeOffice wasn't an option? Open Source Office? Anything-other-than-LibreOffice? OpenOffice is something that I can explain to my mother when I install it for her instead of MS Office, Mom, it's just like Office but it is open source. In fact she didn't notice for a long time. Libre Office? She'll question that for sure, and then what am I going to do, explain the GNU manifesto to her? Come on. I like the use of the word Libre instead of Free among people who know what we're talking about, but from a marketing/branding standpoint, this is horrible.

hakl 16y ago
Did you explain to her what source code is and explain OSI's definition of open source (you know, DFSG rebranded)?
- blasdel 16y ago
  And after that he can explain how the freedom is really for the source code and not for her!
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    Not really. If it's GPL, it's freedom for her from the developer.
    - gaius 16y ago
      Assuming she has both the skill and the time to understand and patch the codebase herself. Otherwise she will be just as beholden to said developer as she is to Microsoft. More in fact; at least MS has some incentive to add features its users want rather than those that are merely interesting to code...
      - rbanffy 16y ago
        > Otherwise she will be just as beholden to said developer as she is to Microsoft. She can buy a book and learn how to bend the program to her will. It may be a daunting task, but it's possible because she has the source code. In the Microsoft product case, she can't because she doesn't have the source. Actually, she can, but she will have to learn how to program, apply for a job opening at Microsoft for the desired group, get hired and then convince the product manglers the change she wants deserves to be included in the product. Reading the book doesn't seem that daunting now.
        gaius 16y ago
        Oh please! How many months, or years perhaps, working at it every day, would it take a normal, not-particularly technical end-user to get their C++ to a level they could add meaningful features to a full blown office suite? Or at a typical hourly rate, how much would it cost to hire a C++ programmer who's never seen this code before to do it, and how long would it take? Weeks probably. You might as well say, there are books in the library, go build a rocket and fly to the moon. But users, collectively, can decide what feature any commercial organization implements next, by indicating what they are willing to pay for.
        patrickaljord 16y ago
        She could just pay someone to hack on the code for her, not something she could do with MS Office.
        gaius 16y ago
        At the hourly rate of a decent C++ hacker, that will cost more than Microsoft's entire product range at retail... There is an entire industry of VB and VBA programmers who customize MS Office for organizations. I gather even OpenOffice.org has some of that capability. But to do something to OOo that you can't do in VBA with MS Office is a substantial amount of work.
        rbanffy 16y ago
        > Oh please! How many months, or years perhaps, working at it every day, would it take a normal, not-particularly technical end-user to get their C++ to a level they could add meaningful features to a full blown office suite? OOo plug-ins don't need to be developed in C++ http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Extensions_development http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Extensions_developm... And it also depends on what you call meaningful. And then, you are completely ignoring every other person who shares the same problem and that can cooperate in solving it - or hiring someone for that.
  - hakl 16y ago
    The source code inanimate. The GNU manifesto says that users shouldn't have arbitrary restrictions imposed on them; this has individual and collective implications.
jawee 16y ago
Isn't it easier to explain the concept of libre meaning free[dom] than it is to explain the concept of open source, which may be harder to grasp? If you need to explain, libre is similar to liberty.. and it's a word in several languages. I fail to see how it's a marketing failure.
- dminor 16y ago
  > I fail to see how it's a marketing failure. Because it's awkward to pronounce and then you have try to explain it. Ideally a name would be easy to read and pronounce, and self-describing, and LibreOffice fails on both counts.
nihilocrat 16y ago
"Libre" is probably better understood in Europe to mean "free" in its intended "free as in speech" sense.
- krschultz 16y ago
  That is probably true in Europe, but it definitely fails in the US. What I don't see is why the name has to be so damn literal. Firefox was never named "Libre Interent Browser" Google was never "Better Search Engine That Doesn't Totally Suck" OpenOffice at least wasn't that clunky and got the point across. This is a name by hackers for hackers. Why is that a good idea for a project with the mainstream reach of Firefox? This is a cross platform office suite, it could be used by literally EVERY PERSON WHO USES A COMPUTER, the name is extremely important. It doesn't have to mention a damn thing about open source, free software, or anything in its name. Most people don't care about Firefox's development model - they just like using it. OpenOffice should be the same way.
  - sprout 16y ago
    Yes, and who wants to use a game console that sounds like a man's genitals or a tablet computer that sounds like a menstruation guard. Names do not matter when you already have a product people want and need.
    - krschultz 16y ago
      I assume you mean the (Sony) PlayStation and the (Apple) iPad. What sticks out to you there? If you don't see the vast difference between the Sony or Apple brand and the Libre Office brand then you don't understand marketing. At this point Steve Jobs could make a toilet called the iShit and people would not care about the name, because they know and love the Apple brand. The product names matter extremely little for them, because people hear Apple (some bad product name), not (some unknown company) iPad. People are excited for the former and ridicule the later. Sony holds an equally good name with many. Both also have massive TV advertising budgets. There is no comparison to this situation. Explain why FOSS is often times better than the commercial counter point and is by definition cheaper, but still isn't gaining traction, what is the problem? I contend the problem is marketing. FOSS developers love to redicule/ignore marketing, advertising, and business people in general, but it is an important part of gaining mindshare. Sure their degree is easier to get, but that doesn't mean their job is easy to do right. Much like the bike shed, everyone has an opinion on marketing and advertising, that doesn't mean they have a good opinion on it. Saying that Apple and Sony are in anyway relevent to the naming of a relatively unknown product by a new group of people is like a marketing guy saying Cobol on Cogs is just like Ruby on Rails. We'd laugh at the marketing guy, but realize the marketing guys are laughing right back at the devs who suck at selling FOSS. We literally can't give away for free what they are charging money for. You know where fixing that problem starts? By respecting marketing and advertising. It is far more than "just a name". There is no such thing as "just a name" when your only method of spreading the word is by word of mouth
rick_2047 16y ago
Its just a name, will she really makes a fuss out of it?
- borism 16y ago
  of course not, it's just something to whine about on the internet forums, that's all.
alextgordon 16y ago
"Libre" also sounds exactly the same as "Libra". Maybe they should call it StarOffice :)
patrickaljord 16y ago
> OpenOffice is something that I can explain to my mother when I install it for her instead of MS Office, Mom, it's just like Office but it is open source. In what way is open source easy to explain? Are you going to tell your mom that software is made up of source code that needs to be compiled and OpenOffice gives access to that source? It's much simpler to say Libre as in Freedom because you can do whatever you want with the software, modify, redistribute, resell etc

hakl 16y ago

Did you explain to her what source code is and explain OSI's definition of open source (you know, DFSG rebranded)?

blasdel 16y ago
And after that he can explain how the freedom is really for the source code and not for her!
- rbanffy 16y ago
  Not really. If it's GPL, it's freedom for her from the developer.
  - gaius 16y ago
    Assuming she has both the skill and the time to understand and patch the codebase herself. Otherwise she will be just as beholden to said developer as she is to Microsoft. More in fact; at least MS has some incentive to add features its users want rather than those that are merely interesting to code...
    - rbanffy 16y ago
      > Otherwise she will be just as beholden to said developer as she is to Microsoft. She can buy a book and learn how to bend the program to her will. It may be a daunting task, but it's possible because she has the source code. In the Microsoft product case, she can't because she doesn't have the source. Actually, she can, but she will have to learn how to program, apply for a job opening at Microsoft for the desired group, get hired and then convince the product manglers the change she wants deserves to be included in the product. Reading the book doesn't seem that daunting now.
      - gaius 16y ago
        Oh please! How many months, or years perhaps, working at it every day, would it take a normal, not-particularly technical end-user to get their C++ to a level they could add meaningful features to a full blown office suite? Or at a typical hourly rate, how much would it cost to hire a C++ programmer who's never seen this code before to do it, and how long would it take? Weeks probably. You might as well say, there are books in the library, go build a rocket and fly to the moon. But users, collectively, can decide what feature any commercial organization implements next, by indicating what they are willing to pay for.
        patrickaljord 16y ago
        She could just pay someone to hack on the code for her, not something she could do with MS Office.
        gaius 16y ago
        At the hourly rate of a decent C++ hacker, that will cost more than Microsoft's entire product range at retail... There is an entire industry of VB and VBA programmers who customize MS Office for organizations. I gather even OpenOffice.org has some of that capability. But to do something to OOo that you can't do in VBA with MS Office is a substantial amount of work.
        rbanffy 16y ago
        > Oh please! How many months, or years perhaps, working at it every day, would it take a normal, not-particularly technical end-user to get their C++ to a level they could add meaningful features to a full blown office suite? OOo plug-ins don't need to be developed in C++ http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Extensions_development http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Extensions_developm... And it also depends on what you call meaningful. And then, you are completely ignoring every other person who shares the same problem and that can cooperate in solving it - or hiring someone for that.
- hakl 16y ago
  The source code inanimate. The GNU manifesto says that users shouldn't have arbitrary restrictions imposed on them; this has individual and collective implications.

jawee 16y ago

Isn't it easier to explain the concept of libre meaning free[dom] than it is to explain the concept of open source, which may be harder to grasp? If you need to explain, libre is similar to liberty.. and it's a word in several languages. I fail to see how it's a marketing failure.

dminor 16y ago
> I fail to see how it's a marketing failure. Because it's awkward to pronounce and then you have try to explain it. Ideally a name would be easy to read and pronounce, and self-describing, and LibreOffice fails on both counts.

nihilocrat 16y ago

"Libre" is probably better understood in Europe to mean "free" in its intended "free as in speech" sense.

krschultz 16y ago
That is probably true in Europe, but it definitely fails in the US. What I don't see is why the name has to be so damn literal. Firefox was never named "Libre Interent Browser" Google was never "Better Search Engine That Doesn't Totally Suck" OpenOffice at least wasn't that clunky and got the point across. This is a name by hackers for hackers. Why is that a good idea for a project with the mainstream reach of Firefox? This is a cross platform office suite, it could be used by literally EVERY PERSON WHO USES A COMPUTER, the name is extremely important. It doesn't have to mention a damn thing about open source, free software, or anything in its name. Most people don't care about Firefox's development model - they just like using it. OpenOffice should be the same way.
- sprout 16y ago
  Yes, and who wants to use a game console that sounds like a man's genitals or a tablet computer that sounds like a menstruation guard. Names do not matter when you already have a product people want and need.
  - krschultz 16y ago
    I assume you mean the (Sony) PlayStation and the (Apple) iPad. What sticks out to you there? If you don't see the vast difference between the Sony or Apple brand and the Libre Office brand then you don't understand marketing. At this point Steve Jobs could make a toilet called the iShit and people would not care about the name, because they know and love the Apple brand. The product names matter extremely little for them, because people hear Apple (some bad product name), not (some unknown company) iPad. People are excited for the former and ridicule the later. Sony holds an equally good name with many. Both also have massive TV advertising budgets. There is no comparison to this situation. Explain why FOSS is often times better than the commercial counter point and is by definition cheaper, but still isn't gaining traction, what is the problem? I contend the problem is marketing. FOSS developers love to redicule/ignore marketing, advertising, and business people in general, but it is an important part of gaining mindshare. Sure their degree is easier to get, but that doesn't mean their job is easy to do right. Much like the bike shed, everyone has an opinion on marketing and advertising, that doesn't mean they have a good opinion on it. Saying that Apple and Sony are in anyway relevent to the naming of a relatively unknown product by a new group of people is like a marketing guy saying Cobol on Cogs is just like Ruby on Rails. We'd laugh at the marketing guy, but realize the marketing guys are laughing right back at the devs who suck at selling FOSS. We literally can't give away for free what they are charging money for. You know where fixing that problem starts? By respecting marketing and advertising. It is far more than "just a name". There is no such thing as "just a name" when your only method of spreading the word is by word of mouth

rick_2047 16y ago

Its just a name, will she really makes a fuss out of it?

borism 16y ago
of course not, it's just something to whine about on the internet forums, that's all.

alextgordon 16y ago

"Libre" also sounds exactly the same as "Libra". Maybe they should call it StarOffice :)

patrickaljord 16y ago

> OpenOffice is something that I can explain to my mother when I install it for her instead of MS Office, Mom, it's just like Office but it is open source. In what way is open source easy to explain? Are you going to tell your mom that software is made up of source code that needs to be compiled and OpenOffice gives access to that source? It's much simpler to say Libre as in Freedom because you can do whatever you want with the software, modify, redistribute, resell etc