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> I'm just saying let's not make a Holocaust in its name, and these policies are literally starting to mirror those types of events. I think you have been misl

> I'm just saying let's not make a Holocaust in its name, and these policies are literally starting to mirror those types of events. I think you have been mislead by the media - at worst it is applying the existing long standing detainment practice to another maybe 20% of cases. > Do you have the stuff to show it's actually hundreds of thousands? More than 20% of public school students in California are classified as English learners - aka don't speak English. https://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/sd/cb/cefelfacts.asp https://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/sd/cb/cefelfacts.asp These people are not evenly distributed among schools/classes so in some schools half your class might not speak English. What impact do you think that has on education levels? The idea that this is a minor issue and results in only a slightly worse education is ludicrous. And education is not a minor issue - when my kids were younger probably 30% of my income went towards my kids education. That's 30-40% fewer hours I could have worked if the public system was any good.

adjkant 8y ago
So a few notes: 1. A single state is not representative of the entire country. Let's keep in mind this is probably the state hardest impacted along with Texas. 2. Of those English learners, what percentage are illegal immigrants realistically? What about citizens who speak Spanish primarily? In California, this is not uncommon. 3. How would you spend 30% of your income on education at the K-6 level (where 3/4ths of these students are)? That seems virtually impossible no matter the income bracket and way you count taxes. If you're paying for private school, you don't have this problem. 4. If this is indeed such a large group at many schools, then those programs listed on the item you linked should be effective in serving both large populations, yes? If they aren't is that really the fault of immigration or simply a failing of public schools, which is not inherently due to immigration. 5. All of this to say that your kid getting slightly less time in K-6 education (after that, the population of English learners is about 6% of the population, which doesn't even take into account English learners who are not illegal immigrants, so likely even as low as 3% or less) is worth this hardline immigration policy? In a class of 40 students, that's two maximum from 6 grade on. I don't see how you can justify that. 6. Again, this is the state hardest impacted. Because California public schools have 3% or lower English learners that are illegal immigrants in their public high schools and other states likely have far less, we separate families?
- sheepmullet 8y ago
  > 1. A single state is not representative of the entire country Yes that's why I said hundreds of thousands of kids are being negatively impacted and not millions of kids. > All of this to say that your kid getting slightly less time in K-6 education You mean an incredibly sub-par education for kids key formative years! Why do you seek to downplay the issue? Why not seek to solve the issue - perhaps in other ways? > I don't see how you can justify that. It's an easy justification to make - you just don't care because you aren't personally impacted. A couple of thousand kids temporarily separated from parents who are knowingly breaking the law in exchange for ensuring hundreds of thousands of kids get a proper education is an easy decision to make. And that's only looking at a single issue!
  - adjkant 8y ago
    So no comment on that 30% of income spent for public schools? > You mean an incredibly sub-par education for kids key formative years! This just sounds like scapegoating. I think the subpar education of public schools is not caused by immigration. Public schooling needs massive changes, immigration or not. > It's an easy justification to make - you just don't care because you aren't personally impacted. No, I'm caring about the kids of illegal immigrants as well as kids in the US. I don't value people differently by nationality or the status of their parents. And I value severity over quantity generally when it comes to moral issues. > Why not seek to solve the issue - perhaps in other ways? Again, I'm all for solving it, but I don't see how this was justified at all. Mind you, we don't even have any tangible numbers on the effects of this policy.
    - sheepmullet 8y ago
      > I think the subpar education of public schools is not caused by immigration. How can you confidently say that? All the evidence points to it being a key problem. > And I value severity over quantity generally when it comes to moral issues. How do you judge severity? You seem to be using your feelings as the barometer. Reality is not so simple. We know that a poor education significantly increases the likelihood you will get involved in crime, go to prison, live in poverty, etc. So what do you think will happen when you screw up the education of hundreds of thousands of kids?

adjkant 8y ago

So a few notes: 1. A single state is not representative of the entire country. Let's keep in mind this is probably the state hardest impacted along with Texas. 2. Of those English learners, what percentage are illegal immigrants realistically? What about citizens who speak Spanish primarily? In California, this is not uncommon. 3. How would you spend 30% of your income on education at the K-6 level (where 3/4ths of these students are)? That seems virtually impossible no matter the income bracket and way you count taxes. If you're paying for private school, you don't have this problem. 4. If this is indeed such a large group at many schools, then those programs listed on the item you linked should be effective in serving both large populations, yes? If they aren't is that really the fault of immigration or simply a failing of public schools, which is not inherently due to immigration. 5. All of this to say that your kid getting slightly less time in K-6 education (after that, the population of English learners is about 6% of the population, which doesn't even take into account English learners who are not illegal immigrants, so likely even as low as 3% or less) is worth this hardline immigration policy? In a class of 40 students, that's two maximum from 6 grade on. I don't see how you can justify that. 6. Again, this is the state hardest impacted. Because California public schools have 3% or lower English learners that are illegal immigrants in their public high schools and other states likely have far less, we separate families?

sheepmullet 8y ago
> 1. A single state is not representative of the entire country Yes that's why I said hundreds of thousands of kids are being negatively impacted and not millions of kids. > All of this to say that your kid getting slightly less time in K-6 education You mean an incredibly sub-par education for kids key formative years! Why do you seek to downplay the issue? Why not seek to solve the issue - perhaps in other ways? > I don't see how you can justify that. It's an easy justification to make - you just don't care because you aren't personally impacted. A couple of thousand kids temporarily separated from parents who are knowingly breaking the law in exchange for ensuring hundreds of thousands of kids get a proper education is an easy decision to make. And that's only looking at a single issue!
- adjkant 8y ago
  So no comment on that 30% of income spent for public schools? > You mean an incredibly sub-par education for kids key formative years! This just sounds like scapegoating. I think the subpar education of public schools is not caused by immigration. Public schooling needs massive changes, immigration or not. > It's an easy justification to make - you just don't care because you aren't personally impacted. No, I'm caring about the kids of illegal immigrants as well as kids in the US. I don't value people differently by nationality or the status of their parents. And I value severity over quantity generally when it comes to moral issues. > Why not seek to solve the issue - perhaps in other ways? Again, I'm all for solving it, but I don't see how this was justified at all. Mind you, we don't even have any tangible numbers on the effects of this policy.
  - sheepmullet 8y ago
    > I think the subpar education of public schools is not caused by immigration. How can you confidently say that? All the evidence points to it being a key problem. > And I value severity over quantity generally when it comes to moral issues. How do you judge severity? You seem to be using your feelings as the barometer. Reality is not so simple. We know that a poor education significantly increases the likelihood you will get involved in crime, go to prison, live in poverty, etc. So what do you think will happen when you screw up the education of hundreds of thousands of kids?