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> is this really how they operate, OpenBSD is a research operating system and security is a core component of their research. Pro-actively mitigating security

> is this really how they operate, OpenBSD is a research operating system and security is a core component of their research. Pro-actively mitigating security risks before exploits appear is one way to improve security that has worked in the past: vulnerabilities having been fixed before they appeared. Because they give reasonable deadlines for companies to fix security bugs (~90 days), they are kept out of the loop by hardware vendors like Intel who requested 1 year to fix meltdown. Being in the dark, if you see some suspicious behavior, either you protect yourself from it, or you might wake up the next day and Intel will have released a new "We are sorry" post and your users would be screwed. So this is pretty much how they operate, and if an OS is as security conscious as OpenBSD, there isn't really a different way to operate. Note that disabling hyper threading to mitigate CPU flaws isn't anything new either: this had to be done for AMD's Ryzen because of hardware bugs last year anyways - https://www.extremetech.com/computing/254750-amd-replaces-ryzen-cpus-users-affected-rare-linux-bug https://www.extremetech.com/computing/254750-amd-replaces-ry...

orf 8y ago
> Because they give reasonable deadlines for companies to fix security bugs (~90 days), they are kept out of the loop by hardware vendors like Intel who requested 1 year to fix meltdown. Is 90 days really a reasonable timeframe to fix something like meltdown? I agree with your whole comment in general, but hardware/microcode issues at Intel's scale are a different beast than some buffer overflow.
- gargravarr 8y ago
  Not to forget, Intel have said this collection of exploits cannot be fixed in microcode, only mitigated - it's so fundamental to the CPU hardware that it requires redesigning the chip to fix properly. The mitigation has led to serious performance hits and further problems down the line. And the permanent fix requires eventually replacing the CPU. As has been previously noted, Meltdown, Spectre and related exploits came about because nobody ever thought it would be possible to access the cache from other processes. 1 year is probably quite reasonable for Intel to redesign the architecture (in fact, is probably going to stretch to 2 years or more), but people need security fixes now. In this case, it looks like OpenBSD are taking the right approach.
- temprature 8y ago
  OpenBSD and DragonFly had their meltdown mitigations done in a couple of weeks from when it was publicly disclosed. If it's good enough for projects developed by handfuls of volunteers, it's good enough for the multi-hundred billion dollar megacorps.
  - orf 8y ago
    So you're saying if a small software operation can put in place mitigations in X time then a absolutely massive hardware operation with hundreds of product lines consisting of some of the most advanced, ridiculously complex, slow to develop chips in the world can push a fix to many billions of devices in X time as well, whilst ensuring backwards compatibility and reducing the performance impact across the mind mindbogglingly large number of different workloads that their chips are used for. Makes sense. 90 days is more than enough.
    - temprature 8y ago
      Implementing KPTI didn't involve any of what you just said.
      - orf 8y ago
        Exactly. So how can you compare the work that's required from Intel to patch the flaw in new designs + mitigate it with microcode vs the work that's required from 'projects developed by handfuls of volunteers'?
keldaris 8y ago
> if an OS is as security conscious as OpenBSD, there isn't really a different way to operate That's really what I was getting at with my question. There's no such thing as absolute security, it is a set of tradeoffs between usability, performance and specific security guarantees. Is there a point where the OpenBSD developers would say "okay, this is a (potential or confirmed) security bug, but the mitigation is just too costly in this case"? In the post-Spectre world, it's not completely inconceivable to contemplate the possibility that, in order to retain the security guarantees most people thought they had, one might have to give up a substantial subset of the benefits of speculative execution in out of order processors. For some workloads that might mean up to two orders of magnitude in performance. I know roughly where the common operating systems would draw the line and I certainly know where I would, for my own usecases. I'm just curious about how OpenBSD works in this regard.
- temprature 8y ago
  It's a sysctl that can be toggled. If you want hyperthreading and don't care about the security concerns, you can turn it back on. The commit message specifically mentions that this was implemented because many modern machines don't allow hyperthreading to be disabled in the BIOS. You'll find out in a couple of months why they did this. I hope you'll remember the comments you've written when that happens, because you might learn something about what OpenBSD means when they say they "strongly suspect" something.
  - keldaris 8y ago
    As I already implied in the parent post, I've no doubt we'll see more Spectre-like issues and I don't find it hard to believe that there's yet another embargo going on, that something's leaked again and that the OpenBSD people have picked up on it. I'm just curious about how many tradeoffs in performance and usability OpenBSD would be willing to make (in the form of default settings, I'm aware this one can be toggled) in the pursuit of security and how they do the cost/benefit analysis, because their process seems vastly different from that of the main OS vendors. On the latter point, I did take "strongly suspect" at face value rather than code for "we know for sure, just can't disclose it all yet" because I'm not familiar with the development culture of OpenBSD.

orf 8y ago

> Because they give reasonable deadlines for companies to fix security bugs (~90 days), they are kept out of the loop by hardware vendors like Intel who requested 1 year to fix meltdown. Is 90 days really a reasonable timeframe to fix something like meltdown? I agree with your whole comment in general, but hardware/microcode issues at Intel's scale are a different beast than some buffer overflow.

gargravarr 8y ago
Not to forget, Intel have said this collection of exploits cannot be fixed in microcode, only mitigated - it's so fundamental to the CPU hardware that it requires redesigning the chip to fix properly. The mitigation has led to serious performance hits and further problems down the line. And the permanent fix requires eventually replacing the CPU. As has been previously noted, Meltdown, Spectre and related exploits came about because nobody ever thought it would be possible to access the cache from other processes. 1 year is probably quite reasonable for Intel to redesign the architecture (in fact, is probably going to stretch to 2 years or more), but people need security fixes now. In this case, it looks like OpenBSD are taking the right approach.
temprature 8y ago
OpenBSD and DragonFly had their meltdown mitigations done in a couple of weeks from when it was publicly disclosed. If it's good enough for projects developed by handfuls of volunteers, it's good enough for the multi-hundred billion dollar megacorps.
- orf 8y ago
  So you're saying if a small software operation can put in place mitigations in X time then a absolutely massive hardware operation with hundreds of product lines consisting of some of the most advanced, ridiculously complex, slow to develop chips in the world can push a fix to many billions of devices in X time as well, whilst ensuring backwards compatibility and reducing the performance impact across the mind mindbogglingly large number of different workloads that their chips are used for. Makes sense. 90 days is more than enough.
  - temprature 8y ago
    Implementing KPTI didn't involve any of what you just said.
    - orf 8y ago
      Exactly. So how can you compare the work that's required from Intel to patch the flaw in new designs + mitigate it with microcode vs the work that's required from 'projects developed by handfuls of volunteers'?

keldaris 8y ago

> if an OS is as security conscious as OpenBSD, there isn't really a different way to operate That's really what I was getting at with my question. There's no such thing as absolute security, it is a set of tradeoffs between usability, performance and specific security guarantees. Is there a point where the OpenBSD developers would say "okay, this is a (potential or confirmed) security bug, but the mitigation is just too costly in this case"? In the post-Spectre world, it's not completely inconceivable to contemplate the possibility that, in order to retain the security guarantees most people thought they had, one might have to give up a substantial subset of the benefits of speculative execution in out of order processors. For some workloads that might mean up to two orders of magnitude in performance. I know roughly where the common operating systems would draw the line and I certainly know where I would, for my own usecases. I'm just curious about how OpenBSD works in this regard.

temprature 8y ago
It's a sysctl that can be toggled. If you want hyperthreading and don't care about the security concerns, you can turn it back on. The commit message specifically mentions that this was implemented because many modern machines don't allow hyperthreading to be disabled in the BIOS. You'll find out in a couple of months why they did this. I hope you'll remember the comments you've written when that happens, because you might learn something about what OpenBSD means when they say they "strongly suspect" something.
- keldaris 8y ago
  As I already implied in the parent post, I've no doubt we'll see more Spectre-like issues and I don't find it hard to believe that there's yet another embargo going on, that something's leaked again and that the OpenBSD people have picked up on it. I'm just curious about how many tradeoffs in performance and usability OpenBSD would be willing to make (in the form of default settings, I'm aware this one can be toggled) in the pursuit of security and how they do the cost/benefit analysis, because their process seems vastly different from that of the main OS vendors. On the latter point, I did take "strongly suspect" at face value rather than code for "we know for sure, just can't disclose it all yet" because I'm not familiar with the development culture of OpenBSD.