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> is that most don't think immigration is such a large problem that we must have a zero-tolerance policy that does such harm. According to who? I don't think

> is that most don't think immigration is such a large problem that we must have a zero-tolerance policy that does such harm. According to who? I don't think that's true at all. I think immigration is the most important policy to get right.

adjkant 8y ago
What are the day to day effects you face every day due to current vs ideal immigration policy? What about most people? Do you really think that harm is more than the huge amounts of suffering this policy is causing? Where is your judgment for importance coming from? What's your reasoning for making it such a huge priority? In a country with over 300M people, how is this relatively small amount of people having this vast of an effect? What is it affecting? In terms of public opinion, consider this: https://news.gallup.com/poll/1675/most-important-problem.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/1675/most-important-problem.asp... I wish there was a ranked system to see more than the single importance, but the point being that very few see it as a high priority issue. I don't have specific data for this claim, but I think it's also safe to say the issue is a polarizing one: the group who sees it as the #1 issue thinks its a huge problem while many others see it as almost nothing. The disconnect there is exactly why I led with those questions above.
- sheepmullet 8y ago
  > What are the day to day effects you face every day due to current vs ideal immigration policy? It's the key reason one of the richest states has some of the worst public schooling in the country. It impacts hundreds of thousands of school kids and ensures they end up with a worse education. I wish the techies who didn't care about the negative impacts had to send their kids to these schools.
  - adjkant 8y ago
    Do you have the stuff to show it's actually hundreds of thousands? How much of a difference is the education quality? Public schools are mostly funded by local taxes, yes? How exactly does this come into play? All of this is still to say that you think your kid going to a slightly worse school is worth messing up all these lives so horrifically? I'm not saying let's take every single person that goes to the US or that we shouldn't enforce immigration laws. I'm just saying let's not make a Holocaust in its name, and these policies are literally starting to mirror those types of events. I don't see how any equation of such direct pain to such a large number of people can possibly be justified by small effects on masses. That's a central utilitarian flaw in thinking this was a good idea. That and not caring about the lives of those being harmed. There's a difference between allowing one to immigrate and treating them as human.
    - sheepmullet 8y ago
      > I'm just saying let's not make a Holocaust in its name, and these policies are literally starting to mirror those types of events. I think you have been mislead by the media - at worst it is applying the existing long standing detainment practice to another maybe 20% of cases. > Do you have the stuff to show it's actually hundreds of thousands? More than 20% of public school students in California are classified as English learners - aka don't speak English. https://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/sd/cb/cefelfacts.asp https://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/sd/cb/cefelfacts.asp These people are not evenly distributed among schools/classes so in some schools half your class might not speak English. What impact do you think that has on education levels? The idea that this is a minor issue and results in only a slightly worse education is ludicrous. And education is not a minor issue - when my kids were younger probably 30% of my income went towards my kids education. That's 30-40% fewer hours I could have worked if the public system was any good.
      - adjkant 8y ago
        So a few notes: 1. A single state is not representative of the entire country. Let's keep in mind this is probably the state hardest impacted along with Texas. 2. Of those English learners, what percentage are illegal immigrants realistically? What about citizens who speak Spanish primarily? In California, this is not uncommon. 3. How would you spend 30% of your income on education at the K-6 level (where 3/4ths of these students are)? That seems virtually impossible no matter the income bracket and way you count taxes. If you're paying for private school, you don't have this problem. 4. If this is indeed such a large group at many schools, then those programs listed on the item you linked should be effective in serving both large populations, yes? If they aren't is that really the fault of immigration or simply a failing of public schools, which is not inherently due to immigration. 5. All of this to say that your kid getting slightly less time in K-6 education (after that, the population of English learners is about 6% of the population, which doesn't even take into account English learners who are not illegal immigrants, so likely even as low as 3% or less) is worth this hardline immigration policy? In a class of 40 students, that's two maximum from 6 grade on. I don't see how you can justify that. 6. Again, this is the state hardest impacted. Because California public schools have 3% or lower English learners that are illegal immigrants in their public high schools and other states likely have far less, we separate families?
- tome 8y ago
  > What are the day to day effects you face every day due to current vs ideal immigration policy? What about most people? Do you really think that harm is more than the huge amounts of suffering this policy is causing? I'd be interested in your answers to your own question. What are the day to day effects you face every day versus a much more liberal or a much more stringent immigration policy?
  - adjkant 8y ago
    I don't want a much more liberal policy for the record. I'm frankly not too worried about the policy in terms of numbers/requirements so long as it's somewhere in the middle. What I have a huge problem with, as many I think do, is the method of enforcement. I'm not saying I have the solution either. I'm just saying this sure as hell isn't it.

adjkant 8y ago

What are the day to day effects you face every day due to current vs ideal immigration policy? What about most people? Do you really think that harm is more than the huge amounts of suffering this policy is causing? Where is your judgment for importance coming from? What's your reasoning for making it such a huge priority? In a country with over 300M people, how is this relatively small amount of people having this vast of an effect? What is it affecting? In terms of public opinion, consider this: https://news.gallup.com/poll/1675/most-important-problem.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/1675/most-important-problem.asp... I wish there was a ranked system to see more than the single importance, but the point being that very few see it as a high priority issue. I don't have specific data for this claim, but I think it's also safe to say the issue is a polarizing one: the group who sees it as the #1 issue thinks its a huge problem while many others see it as almost nothing. The disconnect there is exactly why I led with those questions above.

sheepmullet 8y ago
> What are the day to day effects you face every day due to current vs ideal immigration policy? It's the key reason one of the richest states has some of the worst public schooling in the country. It impacts hundreds of thousands of school kids and ensures they end up with a worse education. I wish the techies who didn't care about the negative impacts had to send their kids to these schools.
- adjkant 8y ago
  Do you have the stuff to show it's actually hundreds of thousands? How much of a difference is the education quality? Public schools are mostly funded by local taxes, yes? How exactly does this come into play? All of this is still to say that you think your kid going to a slightly worse school is worth messing up all these lives so horrifically? I'm not saying let's take every single person that goes to the US or that we shouldn't enforce immigration laws. I'm just saying let's not make a Holocaust in its name, and these policies are literally starting to mirror those types of events. I don't see how any equation of such direct pain to such a large number of people can possibly be justified by small effects on masses. That's a central utilitarian flaw in thinking this was a good idea. That and not caring about the lives of those being harmed. There's a difference between allowing one to immigrate and treating them as human.
  - sheepmullet 8y ago
    > I'm just saying let's not make a Holocaust in its name, and these policies are literally starting to mirror those types of events. I think you have been mislead by the media - at worst it is applying the existing long standing detainment practice to another maybe 20% of cases. > Do you have the stuff to show it's actually hundreds of thousands? More than 20% of public school students in California are classified as English learners - aka don't speak English. https://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/sd/cb/cefelfacts.asp https://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/sd/cb/cefelfacts.asp These people are not evenly distributed among schools/classes so in some schools half your class might not speak English. What impact do you think that has on education levels? The idea that this is a minor issue and results in only a slightly worse education is ludicrous. And education is not a minor issue - when my kids were younger probably 30% of my income went towards my kids education. That's 30-40% fewer hours I could have worked if the public system was any good.
    - adjkant 8y ago
      So a few notes: 1. A single state is not representative of the entire country. Let's keep in mind this is probably the state hardest impacted along with Texas. 2. Of those English learners, what percentage are illegal immigrants realistically? What about citizens who speak Spanish primarily? In California, this is not uncommon. 3. How would you spend 30% of your income on education at the K-6 level (where 3/4ths of these students are)? That seems virtually impossible no matter the income bracket and way you count taxes. If you're paying for private school, you don't have this problem. 4. If this is indeed such a large group at many schools, then those programs listed on the item you linked should be effective in serving both large populations, yes? If they aren't is that really the fault of immigration or simply a failing of public schools, which is not inherently due to immigration. 5. All of this to say that your kid getting slightly less time in K-6 education (after that, the population of English learners is about 6% of the population, which doesn't even take into account English learners who are not illegal immigrants, so likely even as low as 3% or less) is worth this hardline immigration policy? In a class of 40 students, that's two maximum from 6 grade on. I don't see how you can justify that. 6. Again, this is the state hardest impacted. Because California public schools have 3% or lower English learners that are illegal immigrants in their public high schools and other states likely have far less, we separate families?
tome 8y ago
> What are the day to day effects you face every day due to current vs ideal immigration policy? What about most people? Do you really think that harm is more than the huge amounts of suffering this policy is causing? I'd be interested in your answers to your own question. What are the day to day effects you face every day versus a much more liberal or a much more stringent immigration policy?
- adjkant 8y ago
  I don't want a much more liberal policy for the record. I'm frankly not too worried about the policy in terms of numbers/requirements so long as it's somewhere in the middle. What I have a huge problem with, as many I think do, is the method of enforcement. I'm not saying I have the solution either. I'm just saying this sure as hell isn't it.