5 ms·

> Governments will always do evil. Not to everyone, all of the time - but they are by nature evil. If a lot of people assume this, then eventually behaviour ha

by bkor 8y ago

> Governments will always do evil. Not to everyone, all of the time - but they are by nature evil. If a lot of people assume this, then eventually behaviour happens according to the expectation. Within Netherlands I assume the government is usually there to make things better (though there are exceptions). What is considered better might be completely different, but still, it's assumed to be better. I've since have a few friends who work for a municipality. It's quite refreshing to notice that they're way more open to try and do good for everyone. Unfortunately there's more populism (ignore facts, just follow assumptions). It seems better to actively ensure that people should be improving things to ensure there's an environment where bad behaviour is frowned upon.

jgaa 8y ago
>> Governments will always do evil. Not to everyone, all of the time - but they are by nature evil. >If a lot of people assume this I come from Norway - by many assumed to be among the most human and decent countries in the world. When a refugee storm hit Norwegian borders a few years ago, the cabinet assigned Antichrist herself, Sylvi Listhaug, to deal with it. It would not surprise me if Trump's advisers had her misdeeds (and results) in mind when they designed their current policy. That's Norway - the country who hands out the Nobel Peace Price. Do yo know how Norway gets rid of it's aging population? They thirst them to death. No assisted death option like in the Netherlands. Just unimaginable pain and fear at the and of life. In Norway today, a man is serving life in prison for murdering and raping a 8 year old girl. He is innocent. Everybody knows he is innocent. But the Justice system is incapable of admitting mistakes - so he remains in jail. I don't want to make software for governments. Because, even those who hand out Peace Prices and pretend to be soo accepting and liberal - even those commit unimaginable evil every single day of the year.
- kristiandupont 8y ago
  I don't know anything about Sylvi Listhaug, assisted death in Norway or the man allegedly falsely accused. You might be right about all of it but it still comes across as a ridiculous combination of strawman arguments and conflating the entire public sector and all laws into suspicious "government". Basically it boils down to "because it's not perfect, it's evil". Would you rather there was no government?
- Certhas 8y ago
  It's quite a leap from: "Any government will do things that I consider evil" to "Governments [...] are by nature evil." Especially as context suggests you don't mean this to read "Governments are by nature capable of both evil and good." [1] The former is almost trivially true, at least in the narrow reading supported by your examples, mostly a function of their size. The latter a vast sweeping philosophical generalization that is backed up by nothing. All your examples show is that there are instances of them failing to live up to your ethical standards (which it seems I largely share). Would you rather have no laws than imperfect laws? No justice than imperfect justice? [1] That would make it a non-sequitur that you would single out governments but are OK with individuals and corporations using your software.
- aaron695 8y ago
  I assume this is murder story - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baneheia_murders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baneheia_murders No idea on the - "Do yo know how Norway gets rid of it's aging population? They thirst them to death." I assume - Patients Have to Refuse Food and Fluids to Hasten Death when Terminally ill - is the only option?
pavelludiq 8y ago
The whole concept of liberalism is based on the assumption that governments are extremely dangerous and potentially evil and in need of constant control by both the public and it's own institutions. Even if it appears that a specific government or institution is doing good work, it is extremely dangerous to accept that as anything other than a temporary and potentially deceiving state of affairs. Constant distrust and suspicion of power is crucial to a free and prosperous society. Politicians, officials and even private executives should never receive praise from the public, if they are doing good work the public should just shrug and say to themselves "yeah, ok, you're not horrible right now". Governments are never good, at best they are not actively harmful.
- Angostura 8y ago
  > Governments are never good, at best they are not actively harmful. Except of course, when they are doing good. Government is essential and its hard - attempting to juggle the needs and rights of diverse and disparate people. I get tired of the mantra that the people involved in government are inherently evil, bad, out for themselves etc. Many people who get into politics do so out of a true desire to make the lives of their fellows better - whether you agree with their stances or not.
  - pavelludiq 8y ago
    I'm not saying that it is inherently evil, I'm saying that you as a member of the public must assume that it at least has that potential at all times for it to function as intended.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      And the grand-(N)-parent 'bkor already answered this by saying that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Yes, the government has potential for doing enormous evils, which comes from its very nature - it's large and has monopoly on violence. But people having a cooperative, instead of antagonistic approach to government helps that potential to go unfulfilled.
- 8y ago

by bkor 8y ago

jgaa 8y ago

>> Governments will always do evil. Not to everyone, all of the time - but they are by nature evil. >If a lot of people assume this I come from Norway - by many assumed to be among the most human and decent countries in the world. When a refugee storm hit Norwegian borders a few years ago, the cabinet assigned Antichrist herself, Sylvi Listhaug, to deal with it. It would not surprise me if Trump's advisers had her misdeeds (and results) in mind when they designed their current policy. That's Norway - the country who hands out the Nobel Peace Price. Do yo know how Norway gets rid of it's aging population? They thirst them to death. No assisted death option like in the Netherlands. Just unimaginable pain and fear at the and of life. In Norway today, a man is serving life in prison for murdering and raping a 8 year old girl. He is innocent. Everybody knows he is innocent. But the Justice system is incapable of admitting mistakes - so he remains in jail. I don't want to make software for governments. Because, even those who hand out Peace Prices and pretend to be soo accepting and liberal - even those commit unimaginable evil every single day of the year.

kristiandupont 8y ago
I don't know anything about Sylvi Listhaug, assisted death in Norway or the man allegedly falsely accused. You might be right about all of it but it still comes across as a ridiculous combination of strawman arguments and conflating the entire public sector and all laws into suspicious "government". Basically it boils down to "because it's not perfect, it's evil". Would you rather there was no government?
Certhas 8y ago
It's quite a leap from: "Any government will do things that I consider evil" to "Governments [...] are by nature evil." Especially as context suggests you don't mean this to read "Governments are by nature capable of both evil and good." [1] The former is almost trivially true, at least in the narrow reading supported by your examples, mostly a function of their size. The latter a vast sweeping philosophical generalization that is backed up by nothing. All your examples show is that there are instances of them failing to live up to your ethical standards (which it seems I largely share). Would you rather have no laws than imperfect laws? No justice than imperfect justice? [1] That would make it a non-sequitur that you would single out governments but are OK with individuals and corporations using your software.
aaron695 8y ago
I assume this is murder story - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baneheia_murders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baneheia_murders No idea on the - "Do yo know how Norway gets rid of it's aging population? They thirst them to death." I assume - Patients Have to Refuse Food and Fluids to Hasten Death when Terminally ill - is the only option?

pavelludiq 8y ago

The whole concept of liberalism is based on the assumption that governments are extremely dangerous and potentially evil and in need of constant control by both the public and it's own institutions. Even if it appears that a specific government or institution is doing good work, it is extremely dangerous to accept that as anything other than a temporary and potentially deceiving state of affairs. Constant distrust and suspicion of power is crucial to a free and prosperous society. Politicians, officials and even private executives should never receive praise from the public, if they are doing good work the public should just shrug and say to themselves "yeah, ok, you're not horrible right now". Governments are never good, at best they are not actively harmful.

Angostura 8y ago
> Governments are never good, at best they are not actively harmful. Except of course, when they are doing good. Government is essential and its hard - attempting to juggle the needs and rights of diverse and disparate people. I get tired of the mantra that the people involved in government are inherently evil, bad, out for themselves etc. Many people who get into politics do so out of a true desire to make the lives of their fellows better - whether you agree with their stances or not.
- pavelludiq 8y ago
  I'm not saying that it is inherently evil, I'm saying that you as a member of the public must assume that it at least has that potential at all times for it to function as intended.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    And the grand-(N)-parent 'bkor already answered this by saying that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Yes, the government has potential for doing enormous evils, which comes from its very nature - it's large and has monopoly on violence. But people having a cooperative, instead of antagonistic approach to government helps that potential to go unfulfilled.
8y ago