4 ms·

What’s the alternative? Anyone else that commits a crime and is imprisoned is separated from their family and children. Why should illegal immigrants get a pass

by koolba 8y ago

What’s the alternative? Anyone else that commits a crime and is imprisoned is separated from their family and children. Why should illegal immigrants get a pass?

dashundchen 8y ago
There are asylum seekers, including those applying at ports of entry, being separated from their children. These children are being ripped from their parents and kept in literal cages in warehouses. https://twitter.com/DemWrite/status/1008939085384126464 https://twitter.com/DemWrite/status/1008939085384126464 I don't think that is happening in your scenario.
- fareesh 8y ago
  The asylum backlog is 600,000 cases. They are not aslyum seekers, they are trying to take advantage of the backlog since under the earlier process they could just wait for their court date and disappear into the country before that. Asylum requests have gone up over 1000% because this exploit has been figured out and it is now the default method of gaining entry. 83% of the kids aren't even with their parents, they are posing as families. Only 2000 kids out of 12000 are actually with their parents. Kids can be held for upto 20 days maximum during which time they arrange for someone for them to stay with - mostly a family member. The Mexico visa is a lot cheaper than the whole process to get a US green card. I would not be surprised if this becomes the preferred method for many seeking a life there.
  - drb91 8y ago
    What’s the worst that can happen if we let them in? Our economy improves and our crime rate drops?
    - factsaresacred 8y ago
      1. There's another billion waiting to enter. 2. There is legal process of entry, they should follow it. 3. Illegal immigration drives down wages, crowding out the most vulnerable citizens of the US. 4. A country decides how and when people are allowed in. There are numerous downsides to mass immigration including stress on services like health, social services and accommodation. Again, to the detriment of citizens.
      - chris_wot 8y ago
        What evidence do you have that wages have been driven down illegal immigration?
        factsaresacred 8y ago
        Availability of cheap labor reduces wages within any industry - this is almost an axiom. But just read an economics book or a study like this one: http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/ http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings... > in the unskilled and semi-skilled service sector, a 1% rise in the share of migrants reduced average wages in that occupation by nearly 0.5% It may seems small but those numbers are variables and for people on the lowest rung of the ladder, every percent counts.
      - drb91 8y ago
        > There's another billion waiting to enter. I think you’re vastly overestimating how much people want to move here. Furthermore, legal immigration would not lower wages. It’s the fact that we don’t provide a legalization process that allows people to charge under minimum wage.
        factsaresacred 8y ago
        > I think you’re vastly overestimating how much people want to move here. I am not. The US is still the top destination for migrants. > legal immigration would not lower wages I agree. We're talking about illegal immigration though. If everybody followed the legal process, great!
        pluma 8y ago
        > I am not. The US is still the top destination for migrants. Is it? Most numbers seem to compare individual countries, which disproportionally overrepresents the US due to its sheer size. However by comparison, in 2016 [0][1]: * 1.49 million immigrants moved to the US * 2 million immigrants moved to the EU * 753,060 immigrants were naturalized in the US * 1 million immigrants were granted citizenship in the EU So I guess that's another category in which the US has been superseded by the EU (like e.g. GDP, exports and tourism). [0]: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested-statistics-immigrants-and-immigration-united-states https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested... [1]: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Migration_and_migrant_population_statistics http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/... EDIT: If you think this is an unfair comparison, remember that EU citizenship grants you the right to live and work in any EU country. Citizenship in any one member country is effectively for most intents and purposes citizenship in all of the EU. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_of_the_European_Un...
  - noobermin 8y ago
    I think you are over estimating the consciousness of people seeking asylum, I don't know how they could be aware of the backlog of cases.
    - puhleeze 8y ago
      You are very naive and uninformed. Do some research before just claiming someone who has real metrics is over estimating. There have been objective studies about the abuse of the asylum process and the prevalence of asylum fraud. Do some research and then opine. By the way, entering the US illegally is a CRIMINAL OFFENSE and when parents with children in tow are arrested the children don’t get a bunk bed in their parents’ cell. The parents know the risk and take it so they are the ones who are creating the problem. The laws are being enforced as they are at borders in every country except ours until recently. There are legal ways to come to this country as refugees use those procedures instead of paying the cartels and criminal elements to smuggle you here. If only people cared about the veterans who are sacrificing their lives to fight for our country a fraction of how much they care about illegal aliens. The priorities of far too many have become disgraceful. Protest for veterans and their families to get better benefits. Support groups that support the veterans who protect your right to free speech instead of protesting first to protect illegal aliens who have no right to be hear. Fleeing gangs in Central America is not asylum—people from the US should seek asylum in other countries if that’s the case because the inner cities are filled with victims of gang violence. Political refugees haven’t come from Central America since the 80s. Sorry people can’t pick a real cause to support.
chris_wot 8y ago
That's not correct. You don't seperate children from their parents over a misdemeanor.
- chris_wot 8y ago
  You can downvote me all you like, it doesn't change the fact that children are being seperated from parents over a misdemeanour "offense".
cm2012 8y ago
Illegal entry is a misdemeanor. So is jaywalking in many jurisdictions. Should the government rip away people's children, without trial, for jaywalking? How about pirating a movie (also a misdemeanor in places)?. Prosecutors have leeway on who to charge how much for a reason.
fzeroracer 8y ago
Why are immigrants the ones most frequently separated from their families, not the people employing them and abusing them? Why are those seeking asylum being essentially entrapped in a web of systems and then being punished for not being lawyers whom memorized every single little detail on the books? What is it that makes crossing a border seeking refuge from violence worse than people who drive drunk and get leniency, or those that speed or endanger the lives of other people? And why do people keep making moral judgments as if a law by the virtue of existing makes it just or sound. Every day I guarantee you violate some sort of law and yet even people convicted of misdemeanors never lose full access to their family.
wwweston 8y ago
The fun part about this question is that it's always asked as if it's crazy talk to suggest there could be variation in how different crimes are addressed.... when in fact, there's quite a latitude in how we handle different violations of the law. Or even individual cases. Not every crime is prosecuted and not every conviction means prison. Why should immigration be different? (And that's before we even get to the question of reports where people presenting themselves for asylum -- a legal process -- have been treated as if they're breaking the law. Or ways in which recent policy seems to have been tweaked to otherwise gum up legal immigration avenues.)
- koolba 8y ago
  > Not every crime is prosecuted and not every conviction means prison. Why should immigration be different? Prosecution of illegal immigration is a bit special as anything short of full enforcement is arguably open borders. It’s unreasonably to expect an illegal entrant to show up for a court date. They’ve already demonstrated they won’t respect the law.
  - fzeroracer 8y ago
    What makes this special versus literally every other case in America? For example, there are people that have gotten away with driving drunk and killing people. Does that mean we've effectively legalized drunk driving? What kind of twisted logic is it that if we don't prosecute every single illegal immigrant to the absolute full extent that it results in open borders? Why should people seeking asylum be treated worse than murderers and killers?
    - koolba 8y ago
      The crime isn’t seeking asylum. It’s entering the country illegally. The asylum part is irrelevant for anything beyond creating a sob story for marketing politically divisive messaging.
      - noobermin 8y ago
noobermin 8y ago
People apparently don't know this but being undocumented is not a criminal offense in that it's not even a misdemenor, it is a civil offense, like getting a speeding ticket. We do not separate speeding people from their children. It is a criminal offense to illegally cross the border, a misdemeanor, but undocumented => illegally crossed is not always true or obvious. For example, one could overstay their visa.
- 75dvtwin 8y ago
  Entering or even attempting to enter illegally, is a criminal offense. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325 "... Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both. ..." I would also suspect, that knowingly demanding/putting ones children into position to protect parent's illegal activities, should be illegal. Although, admittedly, I do no know by which statue.
emodendroket 8y ago
Well I guess a bare minimum would be allowing detained families to stay together as was done in the past

by koolba 8y ago

What’s the alternative? Anyone else that commits a crime and is imprisoned is separated from their family and children. Why should illegal immigrants get a pass?

dashundchen 8y ago

There are asylum seekers, including those applying at ports of entry, being separated from their children. These children are being ripped from their parents and kept in literal cages in warehouses. https://twitter.com/DemWrite/status/1008939085384126464 https://twitter.com/DemWrite/status/1008939085384126464 I don't think that is happening in your scenario.

fareesh 8y ago
The asylum backlog is 600,000 cases. They are not aslyum seekers, they are trying to take advantage of the backlog since under the earlier process they could just wait for their court date and disappear into the country before that. Asylum requests have gone up over 1000% because this exploit has been figured out and it is now the default method of gaining entry. 83% of the kids aren't even with their parents, they are posing as families. Only 2000 kids out of 12000 are actually with their parents. Kids can be held for upto 20 days maximum during which time they arrange for someone for them to stay with - mostly a family member. The Mexico visa is a lot cheaper than the whole process to get a US green card. I would not be surprised if this becomes the preferred method for many seeking a life there.
- drb91 8y ago
  What’s the worst that can happen if we let them in? Our economy improves and our crime rate drops?
  - factsaresacred 8y ago
    1. There's another billion waiting to enter. 2. There is legal process of entry, they should follow it. 3. Illegal immigration drives down wages, crowding out the most vulnerable citizens of the US. 4. A country decides how and when people are allowed in. There are numerous downsides to mass immigration including stress on services like health, social services and accommodation. Again, to the detriment of citizens.
    - chris_wot 8y ago
      What evidence do you have that wages have been driven down illegal immigration?
      - factsaresacred 8y ago
        Availability of cheap labor reduces wages within any industry - this is almost an axiom. But just read an economics book or a study like this one: http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/ http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings... > in the unskilled and semi-skilled service sector, a 1% rise in the share of migrants reduced average wages in that occupation by nearly 0.5% It may seems small but those numbers are variables and for people on the lowest rung of the ladder, every percent counts.
    - drb91 8y ago
      > There's another billion waiting to enter. I think you’re vastly overestimating how much people want to move here. Furthermore, legal immigration would not lower wages. It’s the fact that we don’t provide a legalization process that allows people to charge under minimum wage.
      - factsaresacred 8y ago
        > I think you’re vastly overestimating how much people want to move here. I am not. The US is still the top destination for migrants. > legal immigration would not lower wages I agree. We're talking about illegal immigration though. If everybody followed the legal process, great!
        pluma 8y ago
        > I am not. The US is still the top destination for migrants. Is it? Most numbers seem to compare individual countries, which disproportionally overrepresents the US due to its sheer size. However by comparison, in 2016 [0][1]: * 1.49 million immigrants moved to the US * 2 million immigrants moved to the EU * 753,060 immigrants were naturalized in the US * 1 million immigrants were granted citizenship in the EU So I guess that's another category in which the US has been superseded by the EU (like e.g. GDP, exports and tourism). [0]: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested-statistics-immigrants-and-immigration-united-states https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested... [1]: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Migration_and_migrant_population_statistics http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/... EDIT: If you think this is an unfair comparison, remember that EU citizenship grants you the right to live and work in any EU country. Citizenship in any one member country is effectively for most intents and purposes citizenship in all of the EU. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_of_the_European_Un...
- noobermin 8y ago
  I think you are over estimating the consciousness of people seeking asylum, I don't know how they could be aware of the backlog of cases.
  - puhleeze 8y ago
    You are very naive and uninformed. Do some research before just claiming someone who has real metrics is over estimating. There have been objective studies about the abuse of the asylum process and the prevalence of asylum fraud. Do some research and then opine. By the way, entering the US illegally is a CRIMINAL OFFENSE and when parents with children in tow are arrested the children don’t get a bunk bed in their parents’ cell. The parents know the risk and take it so they are the ones who are creating the problem. The laws are being enforced as they are at borders in every country except ours until recently. There are legal ways to come to this country as refugees use those procedures instead of paying the cartels and criminal elements to smuggle you here. If only people cared about the veterans who are sacrificing their lives to fight for our country a fraction of how much they care about illegal aliens. The priorities of far too many have become disgraceful. Protest for veterans and their families to get better benefits. Support groups that support the veterans who protect your right to free speech instead of protesting first to protect illegal aliens who have no right to be hear. Fleeing gangs in Central America is not asylum—people from the US should seek asylum in other countries if that’s the case because the inner cities are filled with victims of gang violence. Political refugees haven’t come from Central America since the 80s. Sorry people can’t pick a real cause to support.

chris_wot 8y ago

That's not correct. You don't seperate children from their parents over a misdemeanor.

chris_wot 8y ago
You can downvote me all you like, it doesn't change the fact that children are being seperated from parents over a misdemeanour "offense".

cm2012 8y ago

Illegal entry is a misdemeanor. So is jaywalking in many jurisdictions. Should the government rip away people's children, without trial, for jaywalking? How about pirating a movie (also a misdemeanor in places)?. Prosecutors have leeway on who to charge how much for a reason.

fzeroracer 8y ago

Why are immigrants the ones most frequently separated from their families, not the people employing them and abusing them? Why are those seeking asylum being essentially entrapped in a web of systems and then being punished for not being lawyers whom memorized every single little detail on the books? What is it that makes crossing a border seeking refuge from violence worse than people who drive drunk and get leniency, or those that speed or endanger the lives of other people? And why do people keep making moral judgments as if a law by the virtue of existing makes it just or sound. Every day I guarantee you violate some sort of law and yet even people convicted of misdemeanors never lose full access to their family.

wwweston 8y ago

The fun part about this question is that it's always asked as if it's crazy talk to suggest there could be variation in how different crimes are addressed.... when in fact, there's quite a latitude in how we handle different violations of the law. Or even individual cases. Not every crime is prosecuted and not every conviction means prison. Why should immigration be different? (And that's before we even get to the question of reports where people presenting themselves for asylum -- a legal process -- have been treated as if they're breaking the law. Or ways in which recent policy seems to have been tweaked to otherwise gum up legal immigration avenues.)

koolba 8y ago
> Not every crime is prosecuted and not every conviction means prison. Why should immigration be different? Prosecution of illegal immigration is a bit special as anything short of full enforcement is arguably open borders. It’s unreasonably to expect an illegal entrant to show up for a court date. They’ve already demonstrated they won’t respect the law.
- fzeroracer 8y ago
  What makes this special versus literally every other case in America? For example, there are people that have gotten away with driving drunk and killing people. Does that mean we've effectively legalized drunk driving? What kind of twisted logic is it that if we don't prosecute every single illegal immigrant to the absolute full extent that it results in open borders? Why should people seeking asylum be treated worse than murderers and killers?
  - koolba 8y ago
    The crime isn’t seeking asylum. It’s entering the country illegally. The asylum part is irrelevant for anything beyond creating a sob story for marketing politically divisive messaging.
    - noobermin 8y ago

noobermin 8y ago

People apparently don't know this but being undocumented is not a criminal offense in that it's not even a misdemenor, it is a civil offense, like getting a speeding ticket. We do not separate speeding people from their children. It is a criminal offense to illegally cross the border, a misdemeanor, but undocumented => illegally crossed is not always true or obvious. For example, one could overstay their visa.

75dvtwin 8y ago
Entering or even attempting to enter illegally, is a criminal offense. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325 "... Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both. ..." I would also suspect, that knowingly demanding/putting ones children into position to protect parent's illegal activities, should be illegal. Although, admittedly, I do no know by which statue.

emodendroket 8y ago

Well I guess a bare minimum would be allowing detained families to stay together as was done in the past