16 ms·

Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

186 points by rqp 8y ago

andrewclunn 8y ago
Sounds like 100 people asking to be fired.
dionian 8y ago
Doesnt ICE answer to the President and the laws written by Congress? Is hurting ICE meant to influence the decision making of the Trump admin, and if so, how effective might this move ultimately be?
- undersuit 8y ago
  Many people hold the position that if you believe something is immoral you shouldn't assist it. Effectiveness of the protests be damned you're at least not part of the problem.
- petee 8y ago
  Its not about hurting ICE, its about being decent human beings. ICE will be ICE regardless, but Microsoft doesn't have to be complicit, and its employees don't want to be either. That said, if ICE can't find a single company to buy services from, it will reverberate up the food chain
  - AckSyn 8y ago
    Decent human beings don't break serious laws and put their families in danger. There's 10 consulates where they can apply for asylum. No one has to "jump" the border.
- noobermin 8y ago
  People have a right to refuse service as long as there is no discrimination against protected categories I think. Also, given this is a response to current events, it's worth noting this is wholly the admin's policy, it's not something instigated by congress.
- WiseWeasel 8y ago
  Why frame the question in such a way? I would expect a good portion of people to not want to contribute personally to ICE activity.
- rumcajz 8y ago
  This is kind of orthogonal issue. Making sure that technology is used ethically. Google now has ethical charter. Hopefully, Microsoft will do something similar. Then it's Amazon's turn: https://twitter.com/amanda_m_macias/status/983807065012494336 https://twitter.com/amanda_m_macias/status/98380706501249433...
- dannypgh 8y ago
  I'm not sure it needs to be effective at influencing the decision making in order to be worthwhile. I think people owe it to themselves to evaluate the ethics and morality of their work, and not contribute to things they do not want to be part of. Take IBM and the Holocaust (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust) for instance. Could you imagine having written that software on your conscious? Would you be willing to write it? I wouldn't.
- jimejim 8y ago
  ICE really shouldn't exist in the first place. It's an unnecessary organization that is already proving it's dangerous, unorganized, and too powerful.
ve55 8y ago
>Microsoft has been positioning itself as tech’s moral leader. Mr. Nadella and Microsoft’s president, Brad Smith, have publicly said they want to protect user privacy Hard to take this seriously given what Windows 10 and other new microsoft products subject users to.
- mitochondrion 8y ago
  NYT is just giving MSFT its pat on the head for being "with it".
- modzu 8y ago
  ^ turn off cortana and windows starts to fall apart in strange and subtle ways (ie no more local search index)
  - Operyl 8y ago
    Jesus is that what happened? I thought I was losing it. I’m glad I don’t spend as much time in windows anymore these days (besides some games).
  - tinalumfoil 8y ago
    With or without Cortana windows 10 search is horrible. The fact that XYZ will come as the first result for XY but will dissapear when you search XYZ is the noticeably horrible ux I've seen since the Zune.
    - zeusk 8y ago
      That's fuzzy search for you, finder has had this since 10.10 afaik.
- cityhomesteader 8y ago
  Lately, it's been hard to take anything from the media seriously. It's strange how the media has been treating microsoft with kid gloves while wailing on facebook. It's a constant battle with windows 10. You could remove apps, update registry/configs, disable as much telemetry as possible but you never know what the monthly update is going undo. Not to mention the differences options you have for Home, Professional, Enterprise, etc. Then I install net core and vs code on my linux box because "people" were raving about it. It has telemetry as well. You have options for disabling it, but why bother. I uninstalled both. Why deal the hassle. Vim is all you really need if you can get over the steep learning curve. If Microsoft is tech's moral leader, then what does it say about the rest of the tech industry? Bu if they have the nytimes' seal of approval, who am I to disagree.
dilippkumar 8y ago
If only legal immigration reform had this much political attention...
- threeseed 8y ago
  Legal immigration has plenty of political attention. As a way of beating your opponents with a stick.
- mc32 8y ago
  It’s sad, but it’s become the neglected step child for both dems (not enough upside) and Repubs (just lukewarm). On the other hand dems have done not quite a 180 but a 170 on illegal immigration because their calculus is that it will resonate with their base, given Trump has taken away their union labor to some extent. Obama had greater numbers in detention but back then it was a too much a third rail issue to bring attention to.
- izendejas 8y ago
  I appreciate that legal immigration (as if people doing so illegally didn't wish this was an option for them, also) is an important issue for you, but other people matter, also. The kids aren't doing so well right now. You or anyone you care about are not being detained away from family, so let's at least be thankful for that. This to me isn't even a political issue, it's a human rights issue. And to top it off you have an administration that is flat-out lying every chance they get, contradicting themselves in pathetic ways.
- noelsusman 8y ago
  They tried and failed pretty recently. It takes a while for people to get on board again when something fails so miserably like that. It took healthcare 15 years to come back after it failed in 94.
casefields 8y ago
After the Google AI pull out and now this it’s starting to inch pretty close to the inmates running the asylum.
Nicksil 8y ago
>... [We] recognize the grave responsibility that those creating powerful technology have to ensure what they build is used for good, and not for harm. I don't read hear or read this sentiment nearly as often as I would like. Good on these folks for stepping up.
- modzu 8y ago
  +1. and its a great idea to do as an open letter. let's hope it spreads
  - downandout 8y ago
    How is it a "great idea" to protest enforcement of our own laws?
    - evanlivingston 8y ago
      Laws can be unethical? Protesting Jim Crow laws was a good thing?
      - downandout 8y ago
        It’s unethical to require people from other countries that want to enter the US to follow certain, well established, legal protocols before they enter? I’m all for legal immigration. I guess I just don’t understand all the support for illegal immigration. Edit: based on the downvotes, there must be some kind of benefit to the US arising from illegal immigration that I’m missing. Could one of you that downvoted this please explain that benefit to me?
        evanlivingston 8y ago
        I'm unable to downvote, but I'll share my position. I don't base my political beliefs on what is good for the U.S. alone. There are plenty of things that are good for the U.S. but negative for other people. As an example, think of Western expansion in the early 1800's and policies directed towards Native Americans and how certain practices were "good" for the US but bad for other people.
megaman22 8y ago
Microsoft has something like 125,000 employees. 100 isn't even a rounding error.
- Covzire 8y ago
  In a week or so there will be something else for the MSM to outrage everyone about, using yet another extremely one-sided angle about some other policy that started long before Nov 2016. I simply cannot watch/read mainstream news anymore, it's such a joke. You're being lied to and manipulated on a daily basis. Weekly periodicals are the last best source of any kind of non-technical information, and maybe technical too in some cases.
  - threeseed 8y ago
    It was never an enforced policy to seperate children from the parents.
    - Covzire 8y ago
      Then why was the photo that sparked the latest outrage reported as being recent, when it was taken during the previous administration? And what do you do with children at the border when they're not accompanied by a parent or even a relative, such as child traffickers?
      - lern_too_spel 8y ago
        > Then why was the photo that sparked the latest outrage reported as being recent, when it was taken during the previous administration? There was no one photo that sparked the recent outrage. I don't even know what photo you are referring to. > And what do you do with children at the border when they're not accompanied by a parent or even a relative, such as child traffickers? Those children aren't with their parents to start with, so a change in policy on separating children from their parents does not affect them.
  - emodendroket 8y ago
kojon99 8y ago
I’m not American and I’ve always found it fascinating how a part of the American population defends the existence of illegal immigrants in American soil. It’s crazy.
- adnzzzzZ 8y ago
  It's baffling to me as well. For some reason lots of Americans also don't support ID requirements for voting either. I'm from Brazil and even here we require ID for voters. I really just don't get it.
  - nemothekid 8y ago
    Because in the US, and unlike Brazil, Voter ID laws are specifically enacted to discourage people from voting. It’s a solution looking for a problem (voter fraud is hardly an issue in the US). The Voter ID laws are all about putting a barrier in place to prevent $DEMOGRAPHIC from voting, then making it exceedingly difficult for $DEMOGRAPHIC to pass that barrier, even though it’s well within $DEMOGRAPHIC right to vote.
    - joelrunyon 8y ago
      > Because in the US, and unlike Brazil, Voter ID laws are specifically enacted to discourage people from voting. How familiar are you with the voting laws in Brazil and the reasoning behind them?
      - estebank 8y ago
        I'm familiar with the laws in Argentina. Brazil has similar laws and reason behind them. A very big difference is that the US doesn't have a national ID to begin with, and a substantial portion of the population would not support the creation of one. Argentina and Brazil provide a national ID to every newborn that is needed for any interaction with the state. Furthermore, procuring a state ID in the US can be difficult for some citizens, as the documentation that would be required for it (usually birth certificates) was purposely "misplaced" due to explicitly racist policies.
naaaaak 8y ago
Where was Microsoft’s “protest” during the Obama years when this was still on-going? Why protest now other than to virtue signal “me too”?
ginger123 8y ago
In my opinion, for decades politicians of this country tacitly allowed people to come to this country without adequate paperwork. Now asking them to go back is impractical and cruel. People who are here should be able to conduct their lives without the fear of getting arrested or deported while conducting everyday activities like going to dropping their kids to school or commuting to work. Let us be compassionate and give everyone already here a path to citizenship. Just like President Obama did for DACA there should be a cutoff date for a path to citizenship. Once the cutoff date is reached we should deport new undocumented immigrants who don't have a legitimate asylum claim.
- nickwalton00 8y ago
  Honestly I'm fine with people who illegally immigrated to just have a chance to square themselves with the law and be legal without a path to citizenship, then giving citizenship to their children. They did break the law so I think it's fair to have consequences. But they don't need to be afraid of getting deported from the place they've lived the last 20 years.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 8y ago
https://www.geekwire.com/2017/microsoft-plans-triple-azure-cloud-computing-capacity-china-next-six-months/ https://www.geekwire.com/2017/microsoft-plans-triple-azure-c... https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2017/05/23/announcing-windows-10-china-government-edition-new-surface-pro/ https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2017/05/23/annou... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-china-insight-idUSKBN0UE01Z20151231 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-china-insight-i... https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/22/china-xinjiang-surveillance-tech-spread/ https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/22/china-xinjiang-surveilla... https://thenanfang.com/search-engine-bing-com-featuring-skewed-results-china/ https://thenanfang.com/search-engine-bing-com-featuring-skew... https://aawsat.com/english/home/article/1166416/microsoft-fosters-drive-implement-giant-projects-saudi-arabia https://aawsat.com/english/home/article/1166416/microsoft-fo... https://www.mmtimes.com/news/microsoft-seeks-expansion-opportunities-banking-sector.html https://www.mmtimes.com/news/microsoft-seeks-expansion-oppor... Will the new "moral" Microsoft now cut its ties and end its contracts with the Chinese government and Saudi Arabia? After all, they should not be supporting governments that abuse human rights. How about Myanmar, which is actually in the middle of carrying out a real life genocide?
- izendejas 8y ago
  Why not? Take 'em one at a time. And let's start with our backyard because why not, it's easier to see the damage. Your rationale seems to be: Microsoft is not consistently moral, so they should not take any moral stances. Well, then, I hate to break it to you, but progress is suuuuuper slow. That doesn't mean we never seek it.
patrickg_zill 8y ago
It would be entirely expected and likely, that were MSFT to cancel their ICE contract, that many other parts of the Federal government would leave MSFT's services. After all, they too would be only 1 media dustup away from having to deal with finding another vendor suddenly.
- mathgladiator 8y ago
  That could be a libertarian win because maybe then the government couldn't function.
- slededit 8y ago
  The only large tech company with sufficient control over their employees is oracle, and it's unlikely they'll have the necessary capabilities anytime soon. They're still trying to figure out this whole cloud thing.
- anigbrowl 8y ago
  That's a lot easier said than done. Microsoft might decide to look ahead to a time when Trump is not in office. Are the short-term gains worth the long term reputational damage?
  - patrickg_zill 8y ago
    They bought Skype and turned over the keys to it, to the NSA. Did it seriously hurt their reputation? They added telemetry which can't be easily disabled, to all parts of Windows desktop OS - did that seriously hurt their reputation? Supposedly they sell stuff to the DIA, DoD and NSA - what is the long term reputational damage from that? They sell stuff to police departments, like the Ferguson police that (allegedly/from one point of view) shoot dead black men - any feedback from that?
    - anigbrowl 8y ago
      For all we know it's this pattern of behavior that has motivated this current pushback by Microsoft staff. I'm sure you're aware that some political issues attract wider attention than others, and that while people rarely march in the streets to protest the NSA the same is not true of other agencies.
downandout 8y ago
Could someone help me understand the issue with this whole thing? If you show up to commit a crime with your children in tow, you are going to wind up separated from them while you go to jail for that crime. That is as true for illegal entry as it is for bank robbery. Why does the Valley feel that it's OK for immigration laws to be violated? Even very liberal countries around the world tend to be tough on illegal immigration. Why are we expected to put up with it in the US? I'm not trying to cause a big political discussion - I'm genuinely trying to understand how intelligent, tax-paying US citizens have arrived at this position. Edit: So just downvotes then, no explanations or justifications for your positon. Got it. You're the best HN!
- cycrutchfield 8y ago
  It’s illegal to apply for asylum?
  - downandout 8y ago
    It's illegal to enter the country without prior authorization, period. See [1]. The rise in families being separated is being driven by the Trump administration's stepped up enforcement of existing immigration law when it comes to illegal border crossings. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/19/the-facts-about-trumps-policy-of-separating-families-at-the-border/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e823bc7faa9a https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/...
  - IanDrake 8y ago
    It’s not, but sneaking into a country is different than walking into a border checkpoint or embassy to request asylum.
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      Not where the US Code is concerned. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1158 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1158 > Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such alien’s status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section...
stolson 8y ago
Good on them. Companies like Palantir have thousands of people building these types of systems, it's nice to know there are peers of ours standing up those less privileged.
ProfessorLayton 8y ago
I think it's fantastic that highly coveted employees use their status to influence the companies they work for. As the imbalance of power between employers and employees continues to widen, It is one of the few levers we have as tech workers. I have a list of companies that I won't consider working for due to their current or past behavior that completely go against my morals, even if it means I miss out on a few $$. I relish the fact that If the company I currently work for became something I no longer want to support, I could jump ship extremely easily compared to the typical American worker. If the company wants to attract and keep their talent, they have to listen to them.
brokenmachine 8y ago
I'm not American. Could someone please explain concisely what the controversy about ICE is?
- backpack31337 8y ago
  People are mad because immigration laws are being enforced at a time when the president has an "R" next to his/her name.
  - Ar-Curunir 8y ago
    How is it OK to imprison children? At the current scale?
    - backpack31337 8y ago
      That's a hyperbolic misrepresentation of the issue and you know it.
      - peterashford 8y ago
        As was your prior post. I live in New Zealand. There is universal disgust here for the current ICE actions - regardless of political stripe. I notice that many Republicans have spoken out against the policy also. Are you seriously suggesting that they are anti-Republican too?
- tmpz22 8y ago
  Immigration laws were passed in America over the past few decades without proper accounting for either the moral implications or the practical enforcement of the laws themselves. Very recently the current administration put pressure on law enforcement to follow closer the letter of the law, and being unprepared to do so many government agencies (Immigration and Customs Enforcement), resulting in unethical action such as separating a large number of immigrant children and placing them in under-provisioned detention centers like prisoners. Both major political parties have used the situation to attack the others, the conflict itself being a large historical talking point in US politics on all levels, local, state, and federal.
kozikow 8y ago
I don't understand the issue fully, so I would love if someone would prove me wrong. You commit a crime. Your child commits a crime. You go to prison. Your child goes to a youth detention center. OMG FACISM !! Meanwhile, my Chinese and Indian friends wait patiently 20 years for a green card and no one bats an eye. Edit: Look at top 4 downvoted comments, 4 top upvoted comments. Great way to promote thoughtful discussion. Let's just upvote whoever shakes the fists in the air with the most vigor.
- sigmar 8y ago
  >I don't understand the issue fully If you don't understand something maybe it is better to go read, rather than post. For one thing, going to a point-of-entry and requesting asylum is not a crime.
  - kozikow 8y ago
    You may think it's terribly wrong, but that's how at least half of America thinks about the issue. So far, you only provided (soft) ad hominem attack. Attempting to break a law is not much worse than actually breaking a law.
    - sigmar 8y ago
      The U.S. is actually required by law to accept and process valid refugee claims. Or do you think we should only follow laws that you like?
      - kozikow 8y ago
        If you love importing whole South America into the USA why won't you just go live there? And leave people, who wouldn't be thrilled to have Pablo Escobar as their neighbour alone?
        sigmar 8y ago
        Laughing pretty hard at the fact that the only South American criminal you could think of died more than 20 years ago
ThbTs4wbXC9Qjv 8y ago
Fire every single one of those Microsoft employees. People in ICE protect me, mine, and our way of life with their lives every day of the week. I'm not going to flippantly say fuck those people because the politics of the day are making a mockery of a law that was duly imposed and enforced by both parties spanning multiple administrations because it's the fashionable political protest fad of the day. Protest the leadership, not the in-the-trenches folk, the retail workers, or the on-the-ground law enforcement officers for what the people we elected decided to enact as law. I stand proudly by those who risk their lives for my safety and security against those who break our laws.
- Ar-Curunir 8y ago
  Hahaha. Just hahaha. Never knew imprisoning children required a lot of bravery.
  - ThbTs4wbXC9Qjv 8y ago
    So you'd rather see the children imprisoned with adults then? Even when we don't know 100% they are their parents or not? That's just sick. Utterly repulsive.
    - dang 8y ago
      That's an egregious violation of the site rules, and you broke several others of them upthread. We ban accounts that post like this, so please don't do it again.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  - dang 8y ago
    This breaks the site guidelines. Please don't do that, regardless of how right (or wrong) you (or they) are (or feel). https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
RickJWagner 8y ago
There's a finite amount of money available for social programs. It's a zero sum game. The more new immigrants that require resources, the less available for other underprivileged folks. Be careful how you acquire your social 'feel good' points. It might be hurting someone.
- izendejas 8y ago
  Let's start with the allocation problem before we get into the scarcity issue. We're perfectly ok spending millions to pay for bombs. And we were perfectly okay with funding dictators in Central America, for example, all of which led to crises in those countries which led to mass migration. And now here we are. And btw, Nicaragua -- the same country where contras where illegally funded by the Reagan administration to combat the socialists there -- is now again close to civil war. Their socialist leader (Ortega) gets to use the US as a scapegoat (much like Chavez in Venezuela) and his loyal followers buy that stuff. Frankly, many people still remember what the US did in those countries, so I don't entirely blame them. So now tell me why you're worried about social programs when our military takes the pie in spending and that clearly hasn't been put to good use?
shiado 8y ago
It is interesting that this is where some people draw the line of unethical behavior for Microsoft of all corporations.
Wrongthink 8y ago
The media is really pushing this child parent separation thing hard. This is nothing new. You commit a crime, you get separated from your child when you're arrested. Every crime is this way citizen or not, the child does not go to jail with the parent. But that is not what they want. They want the parent to be freed under the guise of the child's rights. There is no sugar coating it, this is a desparate attempt to curb immigration enforcement because the far left is desparate to grow their voting base. They have to import voters from the third world because their agenda is becoming so extreme they are alienating their own native voters. Really sad that politics is being peddled on this website, thinly veiled behind vaguely tech-related discussion. If I want my leftwing political propaganda I'll read reddit thank you very much.
dang 8y ago
All: debate is one thing; egregiously breaking the site rules because you feel strongly about something is another. If you can't stick to the guidelines, please don't comment here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dmode 8y ago
I was lukewarm towards the rights of undocumented immigrants prior to Trump. But his actions in dehumanizing a whole class of people who are desperate for help and support as "criminals" have changed my views. As a father, the screams of children being separated from their parents is haunting. I hear the cries of my own daughter. I can't even begin to imagine her trauma if someone forcibly separated her from me. This is barbaric and inhumane at such a fundamental level that I know how anyone can support this.
- popularrecluse 8y ago
  Thank you for saying so. There are more of us then there are of them. Empathy and equality under the law will prevail. This is insane, and it is a tipping point that I hope all of us who have studied history will recognize as the moment where we have to act. We are one major terrorist act away from our own Reichstag fire; this democracy is fragile.
- emodendroket 8y ago
  What's more, according to the former head of ICE, many of these children will never be reunited with their parents. It is a cruel policy with no purpose beyond being cruel. https://mobile.twitter.com/JProskowGlobal/status/1009119915348021249 https://mobile.twitter.com/JProskowGlobal/status/10091199153...
CMay 8y ago
Who says Microsoft isn't doing more good than harm by helping ICE? ICE will do their job regardless of the tech they use and for all we know, Microsoft is helping ICE reduce mistakes which would otherwise harm the people that ICE needs to manage. People in general need to be more pragmatic, because we see a lot of emotional reactions which only make things worse.
- emodendroket 8y ago
  I always find this argument unconvincing. At its most extreme expression you end up with obviously bogus propositions like "Islamic terrorism is going to happen with or without you, so you might as well join ISIS and attempt to reform them from within."
  - CMay 8y ago
    It's probably unwise in this case to transplant one argument for another and then make a decision about one based on the other instead of assessing them independently. ICE is not ISIS. Illegal immigration is illegal just about everywhere on Earth and for good reason. ICE are simply the enforcement arm of that legal construct. Interestingly enough, ICE and the border patrol may further reduce the chance of ISIS attacks in the US as ISIS explicitly stated they wanted to hide among undocumented migrants to sneak into countries at a larger scale. Life is messy and sometimes the solutions have to be too. It's a great place for software to try to keep things as clean as possible.
mozumder 8y ago
This is like when IBM built and sold tabulating machines to the Nazis to help the Nazis record people killed during the Holocaust. Microsoft: do you want people to eventually reference you in the future in this way?
gremlinsinc 8y ago
If I had the money, I'd start a non-profit who's goal is to get tech companies, and localities to boycott ICE, NSA and unethical government initiatives. Though, I guess EFF kind of does a lot of that. But, I wouldn't mind devoting all my time to that sort of thing instead of coding all day. :P
- rqp 8y ago
  Tech Workers Coalition
  - gremlinsinc 8y ago
    Looks cool.. googled link if anyone's interested: https://techworkerscoalition.org/ https://techworkerscoalition.org/
    - confounded 8y ago
      A very friendly bunch, often free beer and pizza!
duxup 8y ago
I worked for companies who worked with intelligence services and military. I had no major issues. Concerns maybe but it's hard to know the details and bad things happen in war no matter what... so I didn't really think much of it. The whole thing with ICE separating children from families, targeting folks with minor past misdemeanors.... it's all so strangely overtly immoral and unnecessary. I could see taking a stand there.
- thirdsun 8y ago
  > The whole thing with ICE separating children from families, targeting folks with minor past misdemeanors It's my understanding that they apply this horrible policy to any asylum seeking family - no misdemeanors required.
  - slavak 8y ago
    The very act of crossing the border is a misdemeanor, and thanks to Jeff Sessions' "Zero Tolerance" policy, almost every adult is being prosecuted, even if they are not dangerous and even if they apply for asylum. In other words: A misdemeanor is still required. If you do not have a misdemeanor available, one will be provided for you. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/19/17475326/family-separation-border-patrol-visual-explainer https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/19/17475326/f...
ginger123 8y ago
I have a feeling "dang" is trying to censor comments he doesn't agree with. Chill dang! A diversity of thought is good for everyone. Removing racist comments is ok, but removing moving this discussion thread itself from public view amounts to censoring.
JuicyCanvas 8y ago
found this list of all ICE employees : https://rcombs.me/static/ice/linkedin/ https://rcombs.me/static/ice/linkedin/

186 points by rqp 8y ago

Sounds like 100 people asking to be fired.

Doesnt ICE answer to the President and the laws written by Congress? Is hurting ICE meant to influence the decision making of the Trump admin, and if so, how effective might this move ultimately be?

undersuit 8y ago
Many people hold the position that if you believe something is immoral you shouldn't assist it. Effectiveness of the protests be damned you're at least not part of the problem.
petee 8y ago
Its not about hurting ICE, its about being decent human beings. ICE will be ICE regardless, but Microsoft doesn't have to be complicit, and its employees don't want to be either. That said, if ICE can't find a single company to buy services from, it will reverberate up the food chain
- AckSyn 8y ago
  Decent human beings don't break serious laws and put their families in danger. There's 10 consulates where they can apply for asylum. No one has to "jump" the border.
noobermin 8y ago
People have a right to refuse service as long as there is no discrimination against protected categories I think. Also, given this is a response to current events, it's worth noting this is wholly the admin's policy, it's not something instigated by congress.
WiseWeasel 8y ago
Why frame the question in such a way? I would expect a good portion of people to not want to contribute personally to ICE activity.
rumcajz 8y ago
This is kind of orthogonal issue. Making sure that technology is used ethically. Google now has ethical charter. Hopefully, Microsoft will do something similar. Then it's Amazon's turn: https://twitter.com/amanda_m_macias/status/983807065012494336 https://twitter.com/amanda_m_macias/status/98380706501249433...
dannypgh 8y ago
I'm not sure it needs to be effective at influencing the decision making in order to be worthwhile. I think people owe it to themselves to evaluate the ethics and morality of their work, and not contribute to things they do not want to be part of. Take IBM and the Holocaust (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust) for instance. Could you imagine having written that software on your conscious? Would you be willing to write it? I wouldn't.
jimejim 8y ago
ICE really shouldn't exist in the first place. It's an unnecessary organization that is already proving it's dangerous, unorganized, and too powerful.

ve55 8y ago

>Microsoft has been positioning itself as tech’s moral leader. Mr. Nadella and Microsoft’s president, Brad Smith, have publicly said they want to protect user privacy Hard to take this seriously given what Windows 10 and other new microsoft products subject users to.

mitochondrion 8y ago
NYT is just giving MSFT its pat on the head for being "with it".
modzu 8y ago
^ turn off cortana and windows starts to fall apart in strange and subtle ways (ie no more local search index)
- Operyl 8y ago
  Jesus is that what happened? I thought I was losing it. I’m glad I don’t spend as much time in windows anymore these days (besides some games).
- tinalumfoil 8y ago
  With or without Cortana windows 10 search is horrible. The fact that XYZ will come as the first result for XY but will dissapear when you search XYZ is the noticeably horrible ux I've seen since the Zune.
  - zeusk 8y ago
    That's fuzzy search for you, finder has had this since 10.10 afaik.
cityhomesteader 8y ago
Lately, it's been hard to take anything from the media seriously. It's strange how the media has been treating microsoft with kid gloves while wailing on facebook. It's a constant battle with windows 10. You could remove apps, update registry/configs, disable as much telemetry as possible but you never know what the monthly update is going undo. Not to mention the differences options you have for Home, Professional, Enterprise, etc. Then I install net core and vs code on my linux box because "people" were raving about it. It has telemetry as well. You have options for disabling it, but why bother. I uninstalled both. Why deal the hassle. Vim is all you really need if you can get over the steep learning curve. If Microsoft is tech's moral leader, then what does it say about the rest of the tech industry? Bu if they have the nytimes' seal of approval, who am I to disagree.

dilippkumar 8y ago

If only legal immigration reform had this much political attention...

threeseed 8y ago
Legal immigration has plenty of political attention. As a way of beating your opponents with a stick.
mc32 8y ago
It’s sad, but it’s become the neglected step child for both dems (not enough upside) and Repubs (just lukewarm). On the other hand dems have done not quite a 180 but a 170 on illegal immigration because their calculus is that it will resonate with their base, given Trump has taken away their union labor to some extent. Obama had greater numbers in detention but back then it was a too much a third rail issue to bring attention to.
izendejas 8y ago
I appreciate that legal immigration (as if people doing so illegally didn't wish this was an option for them, also) is an important issue for you, but other people matter, also. The kids aren't doing so well right now. You or anyone you care about are not being detained away from family, so let's at least be thankful for that. This to me isn't even a political issue, it's a human rights issue. And to top it off you have an administration that is flat-out lying every chance they get, contradicting themselves in pathetic ways.
noelsusman 8y ago
They tried and failed pretty recently. It takes a while for people to get on board again when something fails so miserably like that. It took healthcare 15 years to come back after it failed in 94.

casefields 8y ago

After the Google AI pull out and now this it’s starting to inch pretty close to the inmates running the asylum.

Nicksil 8y ago

>... [We] recognize the grave responsibility that those creating powerful technology have to ensure what they build is used for good, and not for harm. I don't read hear or read this sentiment nearly as often as I would like. Good on these folks for stepping up.

modzu 8y ago
+1. and its a great idea to do as an open letter. let's hope it spreads
- downandout 8y ago
  How is it a "great idea" to protest enforcement of our own laws?
  - evanlivingston 8y ago
    Laws can be unethical? Protesting Jim Crow laws was a good thing?
    - downandout 8y ago
      It’s unethical to require people from other countries that want to enter the US to follow certain, well established, legal protocols before they enter? I’m all for legal immigration. I guess I just don’t understand all the support for illegal immigration. Edit: based on the downvotes, there must be some kind of benefit to the US arising from illegal immigration that I’m missing. Could one of you that downvoted this please explain that benefit to me?
      - evanlivingston 8y ago
        I'm unable to downvote, but I'll share my position. I don't base my political beliefs on what is good for the U.S. alone. There are plenty of things that are good for the U.S. but negative for other people. As an example, think of Western expansion in the early 1800's and policies directed towards Native Americans and how certain practices were "good" for the US but bad for other people.

megaman22 8y ago

Microsoft has something like 125,000 employees. 100 isn't even a rounding error.

Covzire 8y ago
In a week or so there will be something else for the MSM to outrage everyone about, using yet another extremely one-sided angle about some other policy that started long before Nov 2016. I simply cannot watch/read mainstream news anymore, it's such a joke. You're being lied to and manipulated on a daily basis. Weekly periodicals are the last best source of any kind of non-technical information, and maybe technical too in some cases.
- threeseed 8y ago
  It was never an enforced policy to seperate children from the parents.
  - Covzire 8y ago
    Then why was the photo that sparked the latest outrage reported as being recent, when it was taken during the previous administration? And what do you do with children at the border when they're not accompanied by a parent or even a relative, such as child traffickers?
    - lern_too_spel 8y ago
      > Then why was the photo that sparked the latest outrage reported as being recent, when it was taken during the previous administration? There was no one photo that sparked the recent outrage. I don't even know what photo you are referring to. > And what do you do with children at the border when they're not accompanied by a parent or even a relative, such as child traffickers? Those children aren't with their parents to start with, so a change in policy on separating children from their parents does not affect them.
- emodendroket 8y ago

kojon99 8y ago

I’m not American and I’ve always found it fascinating how a part of the American population defends the existence of illegal immigrants in American soil. It’s crazy.

adnzzzzZ 8y ago
It's baffling to me as well. For some reason lots of Americans also don't support ID requirements for voting either. I'm from Brazil and even here we require ID for voters. I really just don't get it.
- nemothekid 8y ago
  Because in the US, and unlike Brazil, Voter ID laws are specifically enacted to discourage people from voting. It’s a solution looking for a problem (voter fraud is hardly an issue in the US). The Voter ID laws are all about putting a barrier in place to prevent $DEMOGRAPHIC from voting, then making it exceedingly difficult for $DEMOGRAPHIC to pass that barrier, even though it’s well within $DEMOGRAPHIC right to vote.
  - joelrunyon 8y ago
    > Because in the US, and unlike Brazil, Voter ID laws are specifically enacted to discourage people from voting. How familiar are you with the voting laws in Brazil and the reasoning behind them?
    - estebank 8y ago
      I'm familiar with the laws in Argentina. Brazil has similar laws and reason behind them. A very big difference is that the US doesn't have a national ID to begin with, and a substantial portion of the population would not support the creation of one. Argentina and Brazil provide a national ID to every newborn that is needed for any interaction with the state. Furthermore, procuring a state ID in the US can be difficult for some citizens, as the documentation that would be required for it (usually birth certificates) was purposely "misplaced" due to explicitly racist policies.

naaaaak 8y ago

Where was Microsoft’s “protest” during the Obama years when this was still on-going? Why protest now other than to virtue signal “me too”?

ginger123 8y ago

In my opinion, for decades politicians of this country tacitly allowed people to come to this country without adequate paperwork. Now asking them to go back is impractical and cruel. People who are here should be able to conduct their lives without the fear of getting arrested or deported while conducting everyday activities like going to dropping their kids to school or commuting to work. Let us be compassionate and give everyone already here a path to citizenship. Just like President Obama did for DACA there should be a cutoff date for a path to citizenship. Once the cutoff date is reached we should deport new undocumented immigrants who don't have a legitimate asylum claim.

nickwalton00 8y ago
Honestly I'm fine with people who illegally immigrated to just have a chance to square themselves with the law and be legal without a path to citizenship, then giving citizenship to their children. They did break the law so I think it's fair to have consequences. But they don't need to be afraid of getting deported from the place they've lived the last 20 years.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 8y ago

https://www.geekwire.com/2017/microsoft-plans-triple-azure-cloud-computing-capacity-china-next-six-months/ https://www.geekwire.com/2017/microsoft-plans-triple-azure-c... https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2017/05/23/announcing-windows-10-china-government-edition-new-surface-pro/ https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2017/05/23/annou... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-china-insight-idUSKBN0UE01Z20151231 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-china-insight-i... https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/22/china-xinjiang-surveillance-tech-spread/ https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/22/china-xinjiang-surveilla... https://thenanfang.com/search-engine-bing-com-featuring-skewed-results-china/ https://thenanfang.com/search-engine-bing-com-featuring-skew... https://aawsat.com/english/home/article/1166416/microsoft-fosters-drive-implement-giant-projects-saudi-arabia https://aawsat.com/english/home/article/1166416/microsoft-fo... https://www.mmtimes.com/news/microsoft-seeks-expansion-opportunities-banking-sector.html https://www.mmtimes.com/news/microsoft-seeks-expansion-oppor... Will the new "moral" Microsoft now cut its ties and end its contracts with the Chinese government and Saudi Arabia? After all, they should not be supporting governments that abuse human rights. How about Myanmar, which is actually in the middle of carrying out a real life genocide?

izendejas 8y ago
Why not? Take 'em one at a time. And let's start with our backyard because why not, it's easier to see the damage. Your rationale seems to be: Microsoft is not consistently moral, so they should not take any moral stances. Well, then, I hate to break it to you, but progress is suuuuuper slow. That doesn't mean we never seek it.

patrickg_zill 8y ago

It would be entirely expected and likely, that were MSFT to cancel their ICE contract, that many other parts of the Federal government would leave MSFT's services. After all, they too would be only 1 media dustup away from having to deal with finding another vendor suddenly.

mathgladiator 8y ago
That could be a libertarian win because maybe then the government couldn't function.
slededit 8y ago
The only large tech company with sufficient control over their employees is oracle, and it's unlikely they'll have the necessary capabilities anytime soon. They're still trying to figure out this whole cloud thing.
anigbrowl 8y ago
That's a lot easier said than done. Microsoft might decide to look ahead to a time when Trump is not in office. Are the short-term gains worth the long term reputational damage?
- patrickg_zill 8y ago
  They bought Skype and turned over the keys to it, to the NSA. Did it seriously hurt their reputation? They added telemetry which can't be easily disabled, to all parts of Windows desktop OS - did that seriously hurt their reputation? Supposedly they sell stuff to the DIA, DoD and NSA - what is the long term reputational damage from that? They sell stuff to police departments, like the Ferguson police that (allegedly/from one point of view) shoot dead black men - any feedback from that?
  - anigbrowl 8y ago
    For all we know it's this pattern of behavior that has motivated this current pushback by Microsoft staff. I'm sure you're aware that some political issues attract wider attention than others, and that while people rarely march in the streets to protest the NSA the same is not true of other agencies.

downandout 8y ago

Could someone help me understand the issue with this whole thing? If you show up to commit a crime with your children in tow, you are going to wind up separated from them while you go to jail for that crime. That is as true for illegal entry as it is for bank robbery. Why does the Valley feel that it's OK for immigration laws to be violated? Even very liberal countries around the world tend to be tough on illegal immigration. Why are we expected to put up with it in the US? I'm not trying to cause a big political discussion - I'm genuinely trying to understand how intelligent, tax-paying US citizens have arrived at this position. Edit: So just downvotes then, no explanations or justifications for your positon. Got it. You're the best HN!

cycrutchfield 8y ago
It’s illegal to apply for asylum?
- downandout 8y ago
  It's illegal to enter the country without prior authorization, period. See [1]. The rise in families being separated is being driven by the Trump administration's stepped up enforcement of existing immigration law when it comes to illegal border crossings. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/19/the-facts-about-trumps-policy-of-separating-families-at-the-border/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e823bc7faa9a https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/...
- IanDrake 8y ago
  It’s not, but sneaking into a country is different than walking into a border checkpoint or embassy to request asylum.
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    Not where the US Code is concerned. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1158 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1158 > Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such alien’s status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section...

stolson 8y ago

Good on them. Companies like Palantir have thousands of people building these types of systems, it's nice to know there are peers of ours standing up those less privileged.

ProfessorLayton 8y ago

I think it's fantastic that highly coveted employees use their status to influence the companies they work for. As the imbalance of power between employers and employees continues to widen, It is one of the few levers we have as tech workers. I have a list of companies that I won't consider working for due to their current or past behavior that completely go against my morals, even if it means I miss out on a few $$. I relish the fact that If the company I currently work for became something I no longer want to support, I could jump ship extremely easily compared to the typical American worker. If the company wants to attract and keep their talent, they have to listen to them.

brokenmachine 8y ago

I'm not American. Could someone please explain concisely what the controversy about ICE is?

backpack31337 8y ago
People are mad because immigration laws are being enforced at a time when the president has an "R" next to his/her name.
- Ar-Curunir 8y ago
  How is it OK to imprison children? At the current scale?
  - backpack31337 8y ago
    That's a hyperbolic misrepresentation of the issue and you know it.
    - peterashford 8y ago
      As was your prior post. I live in New Zealand. There is universal disgust here for the current ICE actions - regardless of political stripe. I notice that many Republicans have spoken out against the policy also. Are you seriously suggesting that they are anti-Republican too?
tmpz22 8y ago
Immigration laws were passed in America over the past few decades without proper accounting for either the moral implications or the practical enforcement of the laws themselves. Very recently the current administration put pressure on law enforcement to follow closer the letter of the law, and being unprepared to do so many government agencies (Immigration and Customs Enforcement), resulting in unethical action such as separating a large number of immigrant children and placing them in under-provisioned detention centers like prisoners. Both major political parties have used the situation to attack the others, the conflict itself being a large historical talking point in US politics on all levels, local, state, and federal.

kozikow 8y ago

I don't understand the issue fully, so I would love if someone would prove me wrong. You commit a crime. Your child commits a crime. You go to prison. Your child goes to a youth detention center. OMG FACISM !! Meanwhile, my Chinese and Indian friends wait patiently 20 years for a green card and no one bats an eye. Edit: Look at top 4 downvoted comments, 4 top upvoted comments. Great way to promote thoughtful discussion. Let's just upvote whoever shakes the fists in the air with the most vigor.

sigmar 8y ago
>I don't understand the issue fully If you don't understand something maybe it is better to go read, rather than post. For one thing, going to a point-of-entry and requesting asylum is not a crime.
- kozikow 8y ago
  You may think it's terribly wrong, but that's how at least half of America thinks about the issue. So far, you only provided (soft) ad hominem attack. Attempting to break a law is not much worse than actually breaking a law.
  - sigmar 8y ago
    The U.S. is actually required by law to accept and process valid refugee claims. Or do you think we should only follow laws that you like?
    - kozikow 8y ago
      If you love importing whole South America into the USA why won't you just go live there? And leave people, who wouldn't be thrilled to have Pablo Escobar as their neighbour alone?
      - sigmar 8y ago
        Laughing pretty hard at the fact that the only South American criminal you could think of died more than 20 years ago

ThbTs4wbXC9Qjv 8y ago

Fire every single one of those Microsoft employees. People in ICE protect me, mine, and our way of life with their lives every day of the week. I'm not going to flippantly say fuck those people because the politics of the day are making a mockery of a law that was duly imposed and enforced by both parties spanning multiple administrations because it's the fashionable political protest fad of the day. Protest the leadership, not the in-the-trenches folk, the retail workers, or the on-the-ground law enforcement officers for what the people we elected decided to enact as law. I stand proudly by those who risk their lives for my safety and security against those who break our laws.

Ar-Curunir 8y ago
Hahaha. Just hahaha. Never knew imprisoning children required a lot of bravery.
- ThbTs4wbXC9Qjv 8y ago
  So you'd rather see the children imprisoned with adults then? Even when we don't know 100% they are their parents or not? That's just sick. Utterly repulsive.
  - dang 8y ago
    That's an egregious violation of the site rules, and you broke several others of them upthread. We ban accounts that post like this, so please don't do it again.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- dang 8y ago
  This breaks the site guidelines. Please don't do that, regardless of how right (or wrong) you (or they) are (or feel). https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

RickJWagner 8y ago

There's a finite amount of money available for social programs. It's a zero sum game. The more new immigrants that require resources, the less available for other underprivileged folks. Be careful how you acquire your social 'feel good' points. It might be hurting someone.

izendejas 8y ago
Let's start with the allocation problem before we get into the scarcity issue. We're perfectly ok spending millions to pay for bombs. And we were perfectly okay with funding dictators in Central America, for example, all of which led to crises in those countries which led to mass migration. And now here we are. And btw, Nicaragua -- the same country where contras where illegally funded by the Reagan administration to combat the socialists there -- is now again close to civil war. Their socialist leader (Ortega) gets to use the US as a scapegoat (much like Chavez in Venezuela) and his loyal followers buy that stuff. Frankly, many people still remember what the US did in those countries, so I don't entirely blame them. So now tell me why you're worried about social programs when our military takes the pie in spending and that clearly hasn't been put to good use?

shiado 8y ago

It is interesting that this is where some people draw the line of unethical behavior for Microsoft of all corporations.

Wrongthink 8y ago

The media is really pushing this child parent separation thing hard. This is nothing new. You commit a crime, you get separated from your child when you're arrested. Every crime is this way citizen or not, the child does not go to jail with the parent. But that is not what they want. They want the parent to be freed under the guise of the child's rights. There is no sugar coating it, this is a desparate attempt to curb immigration enforcement because the far left is desparate to grow their voting base. They have to import voters from the third world because their agenda is becoming so extreme they are alienating their own native voters. Really sad that politics is being peddled on this website, thinly veiled behind vaguely tech-related discussion. If I want my leftwing political propaganda I'll read reddit thank you very much.

dang 8y ago

All: debate is one thing; egregiously breaking the site rules because you feel strongly about something is another. If you can't stick to the guidelines, please don't comment here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dmode 8y ago

I was lukewarm towards the rights of undocumented immigrants prior to Trump. But his actions in dehumanizing a whole class of people who are desperate for help and support as "criminals" have changed my views. As a father, the screams of children being separated from their parents is haunting. I hear the cries of my own daughter. I can't even begin to imagine her trauma if someone forcibly separated her from me. This is barbaric and inhumane at such a fundamental level that I know how anyone can support this.

popularrecluse 8y ago
Thank you for saying so. There are more of us then there are of them. Empathy and equality under the law will prevail. This is insane, and it is a tipping point that I hope all of us who have studied history will recognize as the moment where we have to act. We are one major terrorist act away from our own Reichstag fire; this democracy is fragile.
emodendroket 8y ago
What's more, according to the former head of ICE, many of these children will never be reunited with their parents. It is a cruel policy with no purpose beyond being cruel. https://mobile.twitter.com/JProskowGlobal/status/1009119915348021249 https://mobile.twitter.com/JProskowGlobal/status/10091199153...

CMay 8y ago

Who says Microsoft isn't doing more good than harm by helping ICE? ICE will do their job regardless of the tech they use and for all we know, Microsoft is helping ICE reduce mistakes which would otherwise harm the people that ICE needs to manage. People in general need to be more pragmatic, because we see a lot of emotional reactions which only make things worse.

emodendroket 8y ago
I always find this argument unconvincing. At its most extreme expression you end up with obviously bogus propositions like "Islamic terrorism is going to happen with or without you, so you might as well join ISIS and attempt to reform them from within."
- CMay 8y ago
  It's probably unwise in this case to transplant one argument for another and then make a decision about one based on the other instead of assessing them independently. ICE is not ISIS. Illegal immigration is illegal just about everywhere on Earth and for good reason. ICE are simply the enforcement arm of that legal construct. Interestingly enough, ICE and the border patrol may further reduce the chance of ISIS attacks in the US as ISIS explicitly stated they wanted to hide among undocumented migrants to sneak into countries at a larger scale. Life is messy and sometimes the solutions have to be too. It's a great place for software to try to keep things as clean as possible.

mozumder 8y ago

This is like when IBM built and sold tabulating machines to the Nazis to help the Nazis record people killed during the Holocaust. Microsoft: do you want people to eventually reference you in the future in this way?

gremlinsinc 8y ago

If I had the money, I'd start a non-profit who's goal is to get tech companies, and localities to boycott ICE, NSA and unethical government initiatives. Though, I guess EFF kind of does a lot of that. But, I wouldn't mind devoting all my time to that sort of thing instead of coding all day. :P

rqp 8y ago
Tech Workers Coalition
- gremlinsinc 8y ago
  Looks cool.. googled link if anyone's interested: https://techworkerscoalition.org/ https://techworkerscoalition.org/
  - confounded 8y ago
    A very friendly bunch, often free beer and pizza!

duxup 8y ago

I worked for companies who worked with intelligence services and military. I had no major issues. Concerns maybe but it's hard to know the details and bad things happen in war no matter what... so I didn't really think much of it. The whole thing with ICE separating children from families, targeting folks with minor past misdemeanors.... it's all so strangely overtly immoral and unnecessary. I could see taking a stand there.

thirdsun 8y ago
> The whole thing with ICE separating children from families, targeting folks with minor past misdemeanors It's my understanding that they apply this horrible policy to any asylum seeking family - no misdemeanors required.
- slavak 8y ago
  The very act of crossing the border is a misdemeanor, and thanks to Jeff Sessions' "Zero Tolerance" policy, almost every adult is being prosecuted, even if they are not dangerous and even if they apply for asylum. In other words: A misdemeanor is still required. If you do not have a misdemeanor available, one will be provided for you. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/19/17475326/family-separation-border-patrol-visual-explainer https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/19/17475326/f...

ginger123 8y ago

I have a feeling "dang" is trying to censor comments he doesn't agree with. Chill dang! A diversity of thought is good for everyone. Removing racist comments is ok, but removing moving this discussion thread itself from public view amounts to censoring.

JuicyCanvas 8y ago

found this list of all ICE employees : https://rcombs.me/static/ice/linkedin/ https://rcombs.me/static/ice/linkedin/