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Ask HN: How do you fix “one/few years of experience repeated multiple times”?

12 points by ccajas 8y ago

Usually it is said in the form of "one year experience over 10 years". Or similar variations. I see this phenomena being mentioned several times in the field of programming. It suggest problem of lagging in skills, basically spinning your wheels and falling well below expectations of employers. I sometimes read about ways on PREVENTING it, but I rarely see it come up with solutions to fix it once you're waist-deep into this problem. For the sake of convenience, a lot of companies correlate years of experience with skill level when vetting candidates for jobs. But several programmers have fallen on the "slow" track for one reason or another, and break those expectations making them very tough to judge. These programmers end up with "senior-level" years but still maybe junior-level in skill and wisdom. And need to catch up to the status quo or risk being un-hireable at many places. How do you solve this problem when you're already regarded as unfit for work? How would they stand a chance against the average developer? What companies are most willing to give the "one year experience over many years" worker a fighting chance and get them up to speed?

jklein11 8y ago
To me, this seems like it is either an issue of confidence or passion. What makes you say that you have junior level skill and wisdom? If companies have employed you for 10 years you are bound to have learned a bunch of things in that period of time. A lot of blue flamers[1] fresh out of college may have a fancy buzz words for describing things, but nothing tops experience. If you truly have gone 10 years without picking up any experience that would differentiate you from someone fresh out of college its pretty evident that this is not where your passion lies. Would you be reigniting your passion, or would you be trying to improve by sheer force of will. If its the latter, I would consider making a career change. Writing code isn't the only way to make money. You'll do a much better job and get more satisfaction out of doing something you enjoy. Obviously this is just my $.02 and I would definitely recommend against blindly taking advice from strangers on the internet. 1.https://www.reddit.com/r/blankies/comments/765fk4/blue_flamer_defined/ https://www.reddit.com/r/blankies/comments/765fk4/blue_flame...
- stocktech 8y ago
  I think the issue is more complex. Take an average college grad, put them in a "good enough" company with a shitty manager and less than interesting work and I think there's 10-20% of those grads who get comfortable and enjoy the paycheck and low stress. At some point, they start to think about the future or compare themselves to their peers, but turns out they don't have the skills to get a new job, let alone match the paycheck Dave's getting. There's tons of companies out there trying to maintain OLD OLD stuff. They're hiring too. There's also a category of people who prefer work where they can come in, do their thing, and leave at the end of the day. They're not looking for more responsibility and there's nothing wrong with that, but they too are left with a skills gap.
  - whatsstolat 8y ago
    Most jobs you come in and do your thing and leave at the end of the day. Exception would be those early startups run at home.
- ccajas 8y ago
  It's probably more of an issue of confidence than passion, because I still enjoy coding. That's what I'd want to continue doing for a living for the foreseeable future. I have also worked on personal projects, some on Github that caught the attention of some decent companies. But I'm very frank about my shortcomings, and possibly too realist, when it comes to interviews. No one wants bad surprises, after all. I have years of delivering as promised, launching many websites and SaaS products. A lot of companies big and small seem OK with my resume. But after the interview, companies felt that I was an entry-level candidate to them. That's what some of them flat out told me. Also, they sometimes were not satisfied with the way I explain technical concepts. Companies do not delegate my hiring process to a more appropriate junior role, or for something simpler like QA. Regarding taking advice from strangers online: online is the most I have interacted with other developers. I have no friends in the industry and my colleagues rarely talk back to me, when I ask the some questions about work or about looking for work. Offering them a favor is not an easy option either, because I feel too broke and unemployed to be of use to anyone. My financial situation is making it hard for me to be a giver first.
  - jklein11 8y ago
    After looking at your github it looks like you certainly have some technical chops. I don't think this is a competency issue but really just a lack of interview skills. Obviously nobody wants surprises in the interview process, and I believe that showing future employers that you are cognizant of your short comings is a good thing and shows self awareness. That said, you need to be sure you aren't disqualifying yourself with the information you are sharing. To be blunt, it seems to me like you need to take ownership of this situation. Rather than asking "Why won't companies offer me the junior role ?" you should be asking "How can I take the risk out of hiring me for the senior role" If you're interested in chatting, maybe a quick convo would help? Not sure that I could directly connect you with a job but it never hurts to talk.
stocktech 8y ago
Fixing it is hard. The biggest hurdle is just admitting to yourself where you're at and how you got there. As much as you can blame your previous employer for your situation, it's ultimately your responsibility and you need to own that. From a hiring manager perspective, I wouldn't say that it's game over, however. I've had plenty of devs get to the interview stage that have an experience vs skill mismatch, maybe 5 years instead of 10, but I consider them for maintenance work or our QA team that's less code heavy. For someone in this position, those roles might be a better fit or the candidate would have a place to prove themselves. Of course, you'd have to take a pay cut and take a mid-level or possibly a junior position. If I offered someone with 5 years of experience a junior position, it would probably be communicated that a bump could happen in 6 months to a mid-level role. A trial period of sorts. The key is to be upfront. I've had devs try to bullshit their experience into something it obviously wasn't and it never works. I'd be blown away if a candidate came in, acknowledged their deficiencies, and said "I'm doing XYZ to figure it out and I really just need a chance to prove myself". Don't underestimate the importance of attitude and industry experience. > What companies are most willing to give the "one year experience over many years" worker a fighting chance and get them up to speed? Something about this question rubs me the wrong way. If you've fallen into the 1x10 pattern, no company is responsible for giving you a fighting chance. The burden is now on you. The advice I can give you is the same as any other dev, but probably more important, find a way to show me your skills and that you're working on improving. Open source work, code tests, side projects, anything and be able to discuss them. The 1x10 devs that I already have are the ones who reject the opportunities given to them, who don't want extra responsibilities, and who aren't interested in learning new things. You need to give me confidence that that isn't you.
- ccajas 8y ago
  > The biggest hurdle is just admitting to yourself where you're at and how you got there. I state that in a lot of interviews. And also that I like to learn and improve my skills. Companies don't seem to like it enough. Maybe I'm being too blunt about my shortcomings. I do not bash other companies when I interview. I just say I can do A, but I want to improve in B and C. They don't delegate me to more basic roles, however. Maybe they think I am overqualified? It seems like most places I interview would be confused as to where they'd potentially place me as I no longer match with anyone. How big of a pay cut are we talking? I'm not one to be really chasing after money, but generally speaking I already am underpaid relative to the average software engineer in my area and still have managed with my salary when I worked. So I'm just looking for a better learning environment. I discuss my previous jobs, and side projects (github.com/ccajas) and a few projects even prompted companies to reach out to me first. But the after the interviews it all falls apart. I haven't made it past phone interviews this year. > I'd be blown away if a candidate came in, acknowledged their deficiencies, and said "I'm doing XYZ to figure it out and I really just need a chance to prove myself" I say that kind of stuff in a lot of interviews, and in my experience, companies don't like it. They prefer someone already fully armed with the knowledge. And usually they get it, because they can. I'm not limiting myself to top companies. I apply to a bunch of local companies doing less glamorous work. I'm not a master of persuasion. But if they give me the benefit of the doubt they notice that I meet their expectations. My company relationships are more of a positive slow burn, so I tend to do better in atypical hiring processes. One last thing I want to point out is that I have noticed a trend among the companies that do hire me. They tend to be the kinds of companies that are desperate to hire people because of high turnaround rate and unstable work environment. If I work for one of them again, I'll just have to put some time aside at work to teach myself better skills and become the mentor for others, instead of seeking a mentor.
zer00eyz 8y ago
> What companies are most willing to give the "one year experience over many years" worker a fighting chance and get them up to speed? The simple answer is none. The company would need to not only figure out why an individual was behind, but then make a call if they were a worth while investment to get up to speed. Too many variables too much room for dishonesty or it not working out. No need to make that sort of investment when there are other people out there, who will likely cost the same amount (all in) and be productive. > I rarely see it come up with solutions to fix it once you're waist-deep into this problem. Individual problems require individual solutions - Change what area one works in (frontend vs backend vs embedded) and make a radical language change. Basically start over and then work like a starving student (be hungry for knowledge).

bluesnowmonkey 8y ago
> I state that in a lot of interviews. Don't do that. Interviews are for selling yourself. They don't need help turning you down. Figure out ahead of time if you want to work there. Then the interview is 100% about closing the deal. > One last thing I want to point out is that I have noticed a trend among the companies that do hire me. They tend to be the kinds of companies that are desperate to hire people because of high turnaround rate and unstable work environment. Yeah been there. Don't browse job ads! It's all desperate high turnover companies like that. And no recruiters. Take a very active role in deciding what career you want. What specific companies, people, tech do you want to work with? Go find them and make it happen.
- ccajas 8y ago
  >Interviews are for selling yourself. Sales skills are my weakness and as you said, they don't need help turning me down. So best to just avoid situations where sales skills are needed. What are some approaches that don't need it? >Take a very active role in deciding what career you want. If you're telling me not to browse job ads, and also not go with recruiters, can you elaborate on "take a very active role"? If you mean that I should use my network, I'm trying. None of my colleagues want to reply to my message anymore. And my dire financial situation is making it hard to give something to them first.
  - jklein11 8y ago
    Unless there is little or no competition for a position, sales skills are required for any job. This means that you will either need to compete on price and take the job that no one else will take for such a low wage, or develop an extremely niche skillset that you will be recruited for.
stocktech 8y ago
If you're comfortable sharing, what are your shortcomings? How are you doing on the technical questions? What level positions are you applying to? > a few projects even prompted companies to reach out to me first This raises a flag for me. If they're reaching out, they must be convinced of your technical ability. I understand you're frustrated and I don't want to read too much into your post. However, how you're talking about your relationships, being blunt, working at desperate places, it makes me think your interviewing skills need work. A single interview faux pas can remove you from consideration. Being negative or highlighting your faults puts you in a bad light. It's entirely possible to remain positive, but still be honest about your experience. I might have phrased "acknowledging their deficiencies" too literally. To give you an example, I once interviewed someone who couldn't even explain basic terminology. Their github was just OK. Yet, they knew about the company. They spoke intelligently about their projects and seemed excited about what the team does. They knew the technical portion didn't go great and were able to 1) convince me they could learn and 2) positively related their existing experience and prior ability to learn to the requirements of the position. Great junior. For the pay cut, there's too many factors to assume, but in this situation, I'm not paying senior rates for lessor work. You also have no leverage so you'd be at wherever I value the position and my belief in your ability. Again, if you can prove yourself after hiring, I'd bring your pay up to an appropriate place.
- ccajas 8y ago
  I apply mainly to mid-level positions. Probably about 70% of the positions I apply to are mid-level or nondescript, about 10% senior-level, and about 20% junior-level. > A single interview faux pas can remove you from consideration. That's terrible. When you’re on the job, people can judge you all they want but it’s gonna take many minor bad judgements (or a few serious ones) to pile up to make them cut ties and fire you. In an interview, way too many things have to go right. That's not a microcosm of a typical job at all. With regards to professional faux pas, I prefer to follow this: if one mistake is not worth firing someone from their job, it's also not worth rejecting someone for a job. Perhaps I can look into jobs where interviewing skills are not strictly required? I count every real interview I go to as practice, and after practicing with dozens of phone interviews, and about 10 on-sites, it's no longer clicking for me. So there's gotta be another way, I think.