6 ms·

I don't necessarily thing Facebook was in the wrong here. Sure maybe somebody made that request to delete the profile against the family wishes but Facebook dox

by crysin 8y ago

I don't necessarily thing Facebook was in the wrong here. Sure maybe somebody made that request to delete the profile against the family wishes but Facebook doxing someone also isn't very acceptable.

TillE 8y ago
Not everything is "doxxing". In this case somebody made a request to Facebook under their own name, and there's no clear reason why they should be entitled to anonymity.
SolarNet 8y ago
It's a court ordering it, they have the ability to require those sorts of things, it isn't doxxing someone if that person committed fraud.
- crysin 8y ago
  I'm not against the court order. I read the parent's comment as though Facebook was in the wrong for not giving the name to the family before the court order.
  - abugheratwork 8y ago
    Fair. You also said you're not sure Facebook was wrong, and made reference to doxing. Let's see if we can clear up those points. Providing the identity (or some approximation) of this person, to the family, is not the same as releasing his home address on 4chan. The term "dox" does not apply. (It might apply if Facebook blindly obeyed the request to restore the page, and it turns out the page has personal information on someone who doesn't want it there. Technically the information was already public, and actually listed in the same place, so I still wouldn't use the term "dox".) I wouldn't expect them to unquestioningly restore the page upon request, but refusing to talk to someone who says their dead family member's profile was taken down by mistake is shitty behavior. Legal, maybe, but I wouldn't go so far as "not wrong". It's pretty wrong. Right?
jnbiche 8y ago
Sorry, but if you're not family it next-of-kin, and you requested for Facebook to delete someone's profile, you should be identified to their family, and the profile restored.
- crysin 8y ago
  What if you have power of attorney? Even if you were family, Facebook should not be help responsible for having to provide you with a name. The person who made the request has a right to their privacy and if Facebook acted in good-faith (which is questionable, I know) and validated the person making the request had the right to do so then I don't see any issue with Facebook's actions so far.
  - barkingcat 8y ago
    That's what the court order is about - determining whether Facebook acted in good faith, or whether there was a process for determining power of attorney. You even said that whole point was questionable - enough of a question to have a court legally compel Facebook to answer these questions. I don't see any issues with the court case pressing forward to get some answers, do you?
  - jnbiche 8y ago
    OK, next-of-kin and/or power of attorney, I should have added. Yes, I agree. I'm sure the court would, as well. But not some random person, fan, or acquaintance, as it appears in this case.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- notahacker 8y ago
  Even assuming their action was purely malicious (and not, say, an extended family member or friend or even fan of the band that was a bit surprised to see a still active profile for someone they were well aware was no longer around and thought they were fixing things), it's a weird world where Facebook has some sort of moral duty to disclose their identity to people apparently obsessed with pursuing them. If the profile can't be restored, that sounds like a separate policy issue with Facebook defaulting to permanently deleting rather than simply hiding profiles in these circumstances.
ItsMe000001 8y ago
You missed the story. It was not about whether Facebook was allowed to delete the profile - it was about giving information to family members of the guy who died. What causes outrage from companies such as Google or (here) FB is not what hey do - but that it is impossible for normal people to get any information about anything! Your Youtube video was deleted - why? No response. My dead partners data disappeared - why? No response. No response to anything. This IS outrageous! Not responding to reasonable requests - and that has nothing to do with "legal" - is one of the worst ways of humans to interact with one another. Try it at home. Their behavior of ignoring you - and again, this has nothing whatsoever to do with what is "legal" - is what gets to people. Psychologically that's just really, really bad, the worst way to treat someone. Which raises the issue to another level: How arrogant as well as stupid are this mega-companies that they think they can do that, that there will be no long-term repercussions? This can't go on forever, people don't accept that, so wouldn't it make business sense to treat your "data-providers" (if not customers) just a bit better? How mighty do they already think they are that they don't have to answer very reasonable questions of people impacted by things they do? Nobody says they can't do it, we just want to TALK! Give me a human, not a bot response! What makes it especially bad is that the requests are tiny! They could be handled easily (yes yes - needs actual humans, i.e. "expensive", oh the horror for those mega-companies who don't know what to do with all their money - but it's easy).
- 394549 8y ago
  > but that it is impossible for normal people to get any information about anything! .... Psychologically that's just really, really bad, the worst way to treat someone. Which raises the issue to another level: How arrogant as well as stupid are this mega-companies that they think they can do that This problem has its origins in the big users-as-products companies wanting to totally eliminate their user support costs, but it's going to get worse. With all the hype around "machine learning," soon no one, not even insiders, may know why your stuff was deleted or your account banned, because it was all delegated to an inscrutable "AI" system that acts but can't expose it's "reasoning."
- dominotw 8y ago
  > This IS outrageous! I know we are beating a dead horse here. But why are people who are not customers expecting customer service. You do get customer service from google if you are paying customer on their gsuite products. That seems reasonable to me.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jlarocco 8y ago
Kind of stupid to call this "doxing". It's not like they're requesting his SSN, addresses, and banking details get posted all over the web.

by crysin 8y ago

I don't necessarily thing Facebook was in the wrong here. Sure maybe somebody made that request to delete the profile against the family wishes but Facebook doxing someone also isn't very acceptable.

TillE 8y ago

Not everything is "doxxing". In this case somebody made a request to Facebook under their own name, and there's no clear reason why they should be entitled to anonymity.

SolarNet 8y ago

It's a court ordering it, they have the ability to require those sorts of things, it isn't doxxing someone if that person committed fraud.

crysin 8y ago
I'm not against the court order. I read the parent's comment as though Facebook was in the wrong for not giving the name to the family before the court order.
- abugheratwork 8y ago
  Fair. You also said you're not sure Facebook was wrong, and made reference to doxing. Let's see if we can clear up those points. Providing the identity (or some approximation) of this person, to the family, is not the same as releasing his home address on 4chan. The term "dox" does not apply. (It might apply if Facebook blindly obeyed the request to restore the page, and it turns out the page has personal information on someone who doesn't want it there. Technically the information was already public, and actually listed in the same place, so I still wouldn't use the term "dox".) I wouldn't expect them to unquestioningly restore the page upon request, but refusing to talk to someone who says their dead family member's profile was taken down by mistake is shitty behavior. Legal, maybe, but I wouldn't go so far as "not wrong". It's pretty wrong. Right?

jnbiche 8y ago

Sorry, but if you're not family it next-of-kin, and you requested for Facebook to delete someone's profile, you should be identified to their family, and the profile restored.

crysin 8y ago
What if you have power of attorney? Even if you were family, Facebook should not be help responsible for having to provide you with a name. The person who made the request has a right to their privacy and if Facebook acted in good-faith (which is questionable, I know) and validated the person making the request had the right to do so then I don't see any issue with Facebook's actions so far.
- barkingcat 8y ago
  That's what the court order is about - determining whether Facebook acted in good faith, or whether there was a process for determining power of attorney. You even said that whole point was questionable - enough of a question to have a court legally compel Facebook to answer these questions. I don't see any issues with the court case pressing forward to get some answers, do you?
- jnbiche 8y ago
  OK, next-of-kin and/or power of attorney, I should have added. Yes, I agree. I'm sure the court would, as well. But not some random person, fan, or acquaintance, as it appears in this case.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
notahacker 8y ago
Even assuming their action was purely malicious (and not, say, an extended family member or friend or even fan of the band that was a bit surprised to see a still active profile for someone they were well aware was no longer around and thought they were fixing things), it's a weird world where Facebook has some sort of moral duty to disclose their identity to people apparently obsessed with pursuing them. If the profile can't be restored, that sounds like a separate policy issue with Facebook defaulting to permanently deleting rather than simply hiding profiles in these circumstances.

ItsMe000001 8y ago

You missed the story. It was not about whether Facebook was allowed to delete the profile - it was about giving information to family members of the guy who died. What causes outrage from companies such as Google or (here) FB is not what hey do - but that it is impossible for normal people to get any information about anything! Your Youtube video was deleted - why? No response. My dead partners data disappeared - why? No response. No response to anything. This IS outrageous! Not responding to reasonable requests - and that has nothing to do with "legal" - is one of the worst ways of humans to interact with one another. Try it at home. Their behavior of ignoring you - and again, this has nothing whatsoever to do with what is "legal" - is what gets to people. Psychologically that's just really, really bad, the worst way to treat someone. Which raises the issue to another level: How arrogant as well as stupid are this mega-companies that they think they can do that, that there will be no long-term repercussions? This can't go on forever, people don't accept that, so wouldn't it make business sense to treat your "data-providers" (if not customers) just a bit better? How mighty do they already think they are that they don't have to answer very reasonable questions of people impacted by things they do? Nobody says they can't do it, we just want to TALK! Give me a human, not a bot response! What makes it especially bad is that the requests are tiny! They could be handled easily (yes yes - needs actual humans, i.e. "expensive", oh the horror for those mega-companies who don't know what to do with all their money - but it's easy).

394549 8y ago
> but that it is impossible for normal people to get any information about anything! .... Psychologically that's just really, really bad, the worst way to treat someone. Which raises the issue to another level: How arrogant as well as stupid are this mega-companies that they think they can do that This problem has its origins in the big users-as-products companies wanting to totally eliminate their user support costs, but it's going to get worse. With all the hype around "machine learning," soon no one, not even insiders, may know why your stuff was deleted or your account banned, because it was all delegated to an inscrutable "AI" system that acts but can't expose it's "reasoning."
dominotw 8y ago
> This IS outrageous! I know we are beating a dead horse here. But why are people who are not customers expecting customer service. You do get customer service from google if you are paying customer on their gsuite products. That seems reasonable to me.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jlarocco 8y ago

Kind of stupid to call this "doxing". It's not like they're requesting his SSN, addresses, and banking details get posted all over the web.