7 ms·

Americans have become extremely bitter and negative about pretty much everything. New American car company trying to change the world (Tesla)? Nope, hope it fa

by grecy 8y ago

Americans have become extremely bitter and negative about pretty much everything. New American car company trying to change the world (Tesla)? Nope, hope it fails. Large American company that contributes massively to the enonomy doing well (Apple) Nope, they suck. Someone wants to talk about Healthcare, or Education, or gun reform ? Nope, they suck. Basically, in modern America, everything and everyone sucks. It's not a positive place to be.

markholmes 8y ago
It’s cool to be pessimistic I guess. What happened to happy?
- dgzl 8y ago
  Why should you assume Americans are happy?
  - martythemaniak 8y ago
    Well, it's getting made great again. In fact, it's almost halfway through the project of getting made great, ergo, it must be pretty good. By 2020 there'll be nothing left to do but to keep it great. Again. http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/314750-trump-coins-2020-slogan-keep-america-great http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/314750-trump-coins-2020...
    - dgzl 8y ago
      > ergo, it must be pretty good. +1 for making me laugh. On the other hand, I'm incredibly impressed by how he's handled the new peace with North Korea. I hope the work that's been happening there continues.
stanfordkid 8y ago
Didn't Peter Thiel predict this in 2012? He outlined it very clearly as an inevitable shift from indefinite optimism to indefinite pessimism in his book "zero to one"
- martythemaniak 8y ago
  Yes. Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy in his case though, so I wouldn't give him points for that.
- lostlogin 8y ago
  He has got himself a bolt hole in New Zealand (under dubious circumstances) if it all goes wrong, so I guess that’s backing himself. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/indepth/national/how-peter-thiel-got-new-zealand-citizenship/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/indepth/national/how-peter-thiel-...
- throwaway5752 8y ago
  I am asking this sincerely, not sarcastically: who cares? Did he make specific dates/times with his predictions? Did he address the specifics of Apple's situation right now? If you are studying the art of making a prophecy, leave it open ended and unspecific. It won't be falsifiable, and people will fill in the blanks with their preferred details. And it doesn't help us with why some people are irrationally rooting against their own self-interest (Apple's contribution to the GDP, high representation in overall national savings), or why we are starting a trade war against the opinion of almost all experts (or what the motivations of the person starting this trade war are). edit: and I should note, le plus ca change... "noblesse oblige" is an old phrase.
- Latteland 8y ago
  One thing different is he seemed to be kind of promoting a view of the world, that everyone should try to be some kind of rich asshole and keep other people down to help himself. We don't need laws, other than courts, cause we'll just sue people to protect our rights. But that doesn't really work, only rich people cna afford to do that. all us regular folks have to sign employment agreements forcing us to non-judicial means to settle lawsuits.
wetpaws 8y ago
It's not only America. Every time I talk with my parents they keep discussing how SpaceX and Tesla are huge scam or how EU will crush and burn, etc, etc.
- simonbarker87 8y ago
  I love it when a new thing is a "scam", if you really question them they have no basis for their opinion other than "it's new"
- chuckkir 8y ago
  It's so easy to become jaded when so many things are "too good to be true" and in fact aren't true. Theranos, Madoff, etc.
zajd 8y ago
"It's the economy, stupid!" How long are we going to watch the economic elite be mystified as inequality skyrockets and the American people become more and more disenfranchised from the "success" of "American" firms like Facebook, Google, and Apple. And yeah, a billionaire like Elon Musk who inherited his money from an apartheid state trying to "disrupt" the auto industry is not going to be taken to kindly, especially by anyone who's paying attention. The ends do not justify the means.
- tome 8y ago
  > Elon Musk ... inherited his money from an apartheid state Huh?
  - zajd 8y ago
    https://www.businessinsider.co.za/how-elon-musks-family-came-to-own-an-emerald-mine-2018-2 https://www.businessinsider.co.za/how-elon-musks-family-came... https://www.businessinsider.co.za/elon-musk-sells-the-family-emeralds-in-new-york-2018-2 https://www.businessinsider.co.za/elon-musk-sells-the-family... > “We were very wealthy,” says Errol. “We had so much money at times we couldn't even close our safe.” I'll let you guess as to who dug up those emeralds. Hint: it wasn't the Musks. Next step in your journey of learning is to look up when the Musks left South Africa. I bet you can figure it out without even looking it up.
    - tome 8y ago
      > Next step in your journey of learning is to look up when the Musks left South Africa. 1989 apparently, 5 years before the end of apartheid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk#Early_childhood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk#Early_childhood
      - zajd 8y ago
        If only Elon Musk was the entirety of the Musk family you might have a point I don't think Elon Musk is a monster compared to his father, it's not even close really. But he is building his fortune on the back of inherited money earned doing some really scummy and shady shit.
andrewmcwatters 8y ago
I wonder if this is a symptom of the times, and based on the current living situation for a majority of Americans and how it alters our outlook on the present and future... It's easier to see undelivered promises right now in America than it is to see promised changed and progress.
koube 8y ago
I would think (hope) that it's a vocal minority. If you have mixed or no feelings about a company there's no reason to say anything, you only say something if you have very positive feelings or very negative feelings, and in the current day positive isn't cool, so the default is negative.
eanzenberg 8y ago
It's easier to complain about everything than to take a stand. When you take a stand you expose yourself to risk of failure.
smileysteve 8y ago
This is some combination of Americans Revising History, Cherishing The Past, or Nostalgia. A large population of Americans picture the American dream as post World War II high growth America, with an unstoppable economy, GM + Ford as the American Made Automobile, the Suburbs as the best place to live, coal and hydroelectric power, and being a World Leader with a clearly defined mission and enemy. So, in essence, things that are not part of that image are new and "liberal" and ruining America. Whether that's Apple, solar panels, or innovative companies like Tesla.
- zepto 8y ago
  Or if could just be that it’s a fact that the success of these businesses isn’t resulting in shared increases in prosperity, and that things that were attainable for more people in the past such as healthcare and housing are increasingly unaffordable. You don’t need ‘nostalgia’ or whatever other descriptor will make people seem backward when you have the basic facts.
  - smileysteve 8y ago
    > it’s a fact that the success of these businesses isn’t resulting in shared increases in prosperity While, Ford substantially differentiated himself by realizing the pros of benefits for workers, the company existed in some dark times (WWI, Depression) where there would have been certain FUD. Moreso, Ford espouses its realization that it is at least part responsible for the suburbanization and ruin of Detroit. Yet, few people today hate Ford.
- menacingly 8y ago
  This is a good insight. I'd tweak it slightly, and say that people are looking for an unsophisticated win that doesn't feel like a shell game. What would settle this is if Tesla were to "pull it off", then we could see if it's blind nostalgia for what you mention, or a preference for simple and obvious utility and productivity. Detroit churning out cars that move and employ Americans is a simpler win to process than the perpetually-almost-here future Musk may or may not be selling.
ams6110 8y ago
Tracks with rise of social media and using outrage to get eyeballs.
- scruple 8y ago
  And clickbait headlines, as well.
NegativeLatency 8y ago
Your first two examples (lines 2 and 3) seem like symptoms of inequality in how financial gains are distributed. Why should someone care how apple is doing if they're struggling to make ends meet / have limited upward mobility.
jumpman500 8y ago
My hot take is that ~50 years of wage stagnation makes a country bitter. Especially when you see how well it correlates with international trade being liberalized. The people have a reason to be pissed. I'm in favor of free trade, but no politician or economist has come up with a good plan to deal with how the wealth is currently being distributed. We need better ideas, because all normal politically feasible tools haven't seemed to work. Though I wouldn't say America has tried very hard at addressing it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_wages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_wages
- r00fus 8y ago
  You know what, screw globalism. All it does is let capital flow where people can't so unless your capital purchasing power exceeds your future labor output, you're going to lose out to foreign labor. Hint: that's most of us.
  - klipt 8y ago
    That's why the EU enshrines freedom of movement for people as well as capital within its borders. But I doubt many Americans would support global freedom of movement...

by grecy 8y ago

markholmes 8y ago

It’s cool to be pessimistic I guess. What happened to happy?

dgzl 8y ago
Why should you assume Americans are happy?
- martythemaniak 8y ago
  Well, it's getting made great again. In fact, it's almost halfway through the project of getting made great, ergo, it must be pretty good. By 2020 there'll be nothing left to do but to keep it great. Again. http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/314750-trump-coins-2020-slogan-keep-america-great http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/314750-trump-coins-2020...
  - dgzl 8y ago
    > ergo, it must be pretty good. +1 for making me laugh. On the other hand, I'm incredibly impressed by how he's handled the new peace with North Korea. I hope the work that's been happening there continues.

stanfordkid 8y ago

Didn't Peter Thiel predict this in 2012? He outlined it very clearly as an inevitable shift from indefinite optimism to indefinite pessimism in his book "zero to one"

martythemaniak 8y ago
Yes. Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy in his case though, so I wouldn't give him points for that.
lostlogin 8y ago
He has got himself a bolt hole in New Zealand (under dubious circumstances) if it all goes wrong, so I guess that’s backing himself. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/indepth/national/how-peter-thiel-got-new-zealand-citizenship/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/indepth/national/how-peter-thiel-...
throwaway5752 8y ago
I am asking this sincerely, not sarcastically: who cares? Did he make specific dates/times with his predictions? Did he address the specifics of Apple's situation right now? If you are studying the art of making a prophecy, leave it open ended and unspecific. It won't be falsifiable, and people will fill in the blanks with their preferred details. And it doesn't help us with why some people are irrationally rooting against their own self-interest (Apple's contribution to the GDP, high representation in overall national savings), or why we are starting a trade war against the opinion of almost all experts (or what the motivations of the person starting this trade war are). edit: and I should note, le plus ca change... "noblesse oblige" is an old phrase.
Latteland 8y ago
One thing different is he seemed to be kind of promoting a view of the world, that everyone should try to be some kind of rich asshole and keep other people down to help himself. We don't need laws, other than courts, cause we'll just sue people to protect our rights. But that doesn't really work, only rich people cna afford to do that. all us regular folks have to sign employment agreements forcing us to non-judicial means to settle lawsuits.

wetpaws 8y ago

It's not only America. Every time I talk with my parents they keep discussing how SpaceX and Tesla are huge scam or how EU will crush and burn, etc, etc.

simonbarker87 8y ago
I love it when a new thing is a "scam", if you really question them they have no basis for their opinion other than "it's new"
chuckkir 8y ago
It's so easy to become jaded when so many things are "too good to be true" and in fact aren't true. Theranos, Madoff, etc.

zajd 8y ago

"It's the economy, stupid!" How long are we going to watch the economic elite be mystified as inequality skyrockets and the American people become more and more disenfranchised from the "success" of "American" firms like Facebook, Google, and Apple. And yeah, a billionaire like Elon Musk who inherited his money from an apartheid state trying to "disrupt" the auto industry is not going to be taken to kindly, especially by anyone who's paying attention. The ends do not justify the means.

tome 8y ago
> Elon Musk ... inherited his money from an apartheid state Huh?
- zajd 8y ago
  https://www.businessinsider.co.za/how-elon-musks-family-came-to-own-an-emerald-mine-2018-2 https://www.businessinsider.co.za/how-elon-musks-family-came... https://www.businessinsider.co.za/elon-musk-sells-the-family-emeralds-in-new-york-2018-2 https://www.businessinsider.co.za/elon-musk-sells-the-family... > “We were very wealthy,” says Errol. “We had so much money at times we couldn't even close our safe.” I'll let you guess as to who dug up those emeralds. Hint: it wasn't the Musks. Next step in your journey of learning is to look up when the Musks left South Africa. I bet you can figure it out without even looking it up.
  - tome 8y ago
    > Next step in your journey of learning is to look up when the Musks left South Africa. 1989 apparently, 5 years before the end of apartheid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk#Early_childhood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk#Early_childhood
    - zajd 8y ago
      If only Elon Musk was the entirety of the Musk family you might have a point I don't think Elon Musk is a monster compared to his father, it's not even close really. But he is building his fortune on the back of inherited money earned doing some really scummy and shady shit.

andrewmcwatters 8y ago

I wonder if this is a symptom of the times, and based on the current living situation for a majority of Americans and how it alters our outlook on the present and future... It's easier to see undelivered promises right now in America than it is to see promised changed and progress.

koube 8y ago

I would think (hope) that it's a vocal minority. If you have mixed or no feelings about a company there's no reason to say anything, you only say something if you have very positive feelings or very negative feelings, and in the current day positive isn't cool, so the default is negative.

eanzenberg 8y ago

It's easier to complain about everything than to take a stand. When you take a stand you expose yourself to risk of failure.

smileysteve 8y ago

This is some combination of Americans Revising History, Cherishing The Past, or Nostalgia. A large population of Americans picture the American dream as post World War II high growth America, with an unstoppable economy, GM + Ford as the American Made Automobile, the Suburbs as the best place to live, coal and hydroelectric power, and being a World Leader with a clearly defined mission and enemy. So, in essence, things that are not part of that image are new and "liberal" and ruining America. Whether that's Apple, solar panels, or innovative companies like Tesla.

zepto 8y ago
Or if could just be that it’s a fact that the success of these businesses isn’t resulting in shared increases in prosperity, and that things that were attainable for more people in the past such as healthcare and housing are increasingly unaffordable. You don’t need ‘nostalgia’ or whatever other descriptor will make people seem backward when you have the basic facts.
- smileysteve 8y ago
  > it’s a fact that the success of these businesses isn’t resulting in shared increases in prosperity While, Ford substantially differentiated himself by realizing the pros of benefits for workers, the company existed in some dark times (WWI, Depression) where there would have been certain FUD. Moreso, Ford espouses its realization that it is at least part responsible for the suburbanization and ruin of Detroit. Yet, few people today hate Ford.
menacingly 8y ago
This is a good insight. I'd tweak it slightly, and say that people are looking for an unsophisticated win that doesn't feel like a shell game. What would settle this is if Tesla were to "pull it off", then we could see if it's blind nostalgia for what you mention, or a preference for simple and obvious utility and productivity. Detroit churning out cars that move and employ Americans is a simpler win to process than the perpetually-almost-here future Musk may or may not be selling.

ams6110 8y ago

Tracks with rise of social media and using outrage to get eyeballs.

scruple 8y ago
And clickbait headlines, as well.

NegativeLatency 8y ago

Your first two examples (lines 2 and 3) seem like symptoms of inequality in how financial gains are distributed. Why should someone care how apple is doing if they're struggling to make ends meet / have limited upward mobility.

jumpman500 8y ago

My hot take is that ~50 years of wage stagnation makes a country bitter. Especially when you see how well it correlates with international trade being liberalized. The people have a reason to be pissed. I'm in favor of free trade, but no politician or economist has come up with a good plan to deal with how the wealth is currently being distributed. We need better ideas, because all normal politically feasible tools haven't seemed to work. Though I wouldn't say America has tried very hard at addressing it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_wages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_wages

r00fus 8y ago
You know what, screw globalism. All it does is let capital flow where people can't so unless your capital purchasing power exceeds your future labor output, you're going to lose out to foreign labor. Hint: that's most of us.
- klipt 8y ago
  That's why the EU enshrines freedom of movement for people as well as capital within its borders. But I doubt many Americans would support global freedom of movement...