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Looking at comments above, I find it extremely disheartening about how bitter Americans have become. Why are people celebrating the downfall of Apple - the comp

Looking at comments above, I find it extremely disheartening about how bitter Americans have become. Why are people celebrating the downfall of Apple - the company that comprises 3.94% of S&P 500, and is probably the single biggest holding of 401K retirement accounts. No American benefits if Apple falls.

stcredzero 8y ago
> ...Apple - the company that comprises 3.94% of S&P 500, and is probably the single biggest holding of 401K retirement accounts...No American benefits if Apple falls. Is it too big to fall?
zajd 8y ago
Sure they do, these massive global tax evading tech conglomerates only benefit the most wealthy in America. PS only 32% of Americans have 401ks If Apple actually paid taxes on the money they made? If they didn't go over to china to pay cheaper labor and avoid enviromental regulations? Maybe you'd have a point. As is, they're just another parasite extracting as much wealth as they can in the name of creating the first quadrillionaire in history.
- dmos62 8y ago
  These are valid points and I don't think this comment merits being down-voted, especially without any replies. Outright calling Apple a parasite might not be particularly tactful, but it's hardly deniable. In fact, even if some of these statements were doubtful or deniable, this comment shouldn't be down-voted. We don't down-vote based on whether or not we like a comment, but on whether or not a comment contributes to a discussion.
  - toasterlovin 8y ago
    To be honest, the person you're responding to either doesn't actually know much about Apple or is being disingenuous. Essentially everything they said about Apple is wrong: Apple pays taxes. Labor is cheaper in places other than China, but nowhere else has the ecosystem to support integration and assembly of consumer electronics. Apple is one of the few companies that is taking steps to ensure that their entire supply chain treats their workers well. And Apple has been an innovator when it comes to implementing environmentally friendly manufacturing practices and product packaging materials. Oh yeah, and they are making serious efforts to build enough renewable energy to offset their energy needs.
- eanzenberg 8y ago
  Let's thank god Apple is an american company paying a shitload of tax to america so they can support all the handouts you want the american gov't to pay for. Companies like them are the reason we can borrow $20T at super low interest rates to continue the spend spend spend of the last 30 years while true parasites continue to scream "what can my country do for me" instead of "what can I do for my country".
- AgentOrange1234 8y ago
  I'll (of course) agree that they benefit wealthy shareholders more than other people, but it seems a stretch to say that they only benefit the wealthy. They employ lots of people. They make phones/etc that people like. They match employees charitable contributions. Blah blah blah.
- pishpash 8y ago
  How is that Apple's problem? They don't write the tax laws, and there were numerous squandered political opportunities to extract real concessions from them, most recently during the December tax giveaway.
frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
Perhaps it's bad if Apple fails but not for the reasons you list. Your comment is the epitome of 'too big to fail.' What, once a company gets big enough to get in some 401k accounts we're obligated to keep it going? I reject that. Apple is largely a widget company which produces expensive but nice technological baubles. If it fails we'll be fine.
- pishpash 8y ago
  Ah yes, the "let's go back to subsistence" argument.
elorant 8y ago
It seems that no American has benefited from their dominance either. They pay very little taxes and most of their manufacturing is offshore.
grecy 8y ago
Americans have become extremely bitter and negative about pretty much everything. New American car company trying to change the world (Tesla)? Nope, hope it fails. Large American company that contributes massively to the enonomy doing well (Apple) Nope, they suck. Someone wants to talk about Healthcare, or Education, or gun reform ? Nope, they suck. Basically, in modern America, everything and everyone sucks. It's not a positive place to be.
- markholmes 8y ago
  It’s cool to be pessimistic I guess. What happened to happy?
  - dgzl 8y ago
    Why should you assume Americans are happy?
    - martythemaniak 8y ago
      Well, it's getting made great again. In fact, it's almost halfway through the project of getting made great, ergo, it must be pretty good. By 2020 there'll be nothing left to do but to keep it great. Again. http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/314750-trump-coins-2020-slogan-keep-america-great http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/314750-trump-coins-2020...
      - dgzl 8y ago
        > ergo, it must be pretty good. +1 for making me laugh. On the other hand, I'm incredibly impressed by how he's handled the new peace with North Korea. I hope the work that's been happening there continues.
- stanfordkid 8y ago
  Didn't Peter Thiel predict this in 2012? He outlined it very clearly as an inevitable shift from indefinite optimism to indefinite pessimism in his book "zero to one"
zepto 8y ago
Whilst I agree that no American benefits if Apple fails, it’s not surprising that Americans no longer celebrate the success of American businesses. The economy is demonstrably structured so that only a small number benefit, whilst income has been stagnant for generations, and living standards have been declining because of rising healthcare costs. Bringing down Apple may benefit nobody, but there is no longer any reason for most Americans to care about the success of American businesses since they can’t share in the prosperity.
- karpodiem 8y ago
  "Bringing down Apple may benefit nobody, but there is no longer any reason for Americans to care about the success of American businesses since they don’t share in the prosperity." Precisely. Many Fortune 100 US companies took the vast majority of their tax windfall/oversea cash and bought back the stock. Before you say most Americans own 401K's and have benefited from this - the relative increase in 401K's is dwarfed by the increase in housing prices and general inflation. Most Americans have experience single digit wage growth since the early 1980s, while the cost of pretty much everything has increased by double digits. Most Americans are worse off today (from an earnings standpoint once you normalize it for inflation and purchasing power) than they were 30 years ago.
  - epicureanideal 8y ago
    I think we're worse off from the standpoint of financial independence and ability to grow wealth, yes. Ability to pay for things like education and health care, yes. I think the reason this isn't more obvious is that technology has improved so rapidly that for just a few thousand dollars... maybe 5% of the average household's income, we can buy really fantastic technology products compared to previous generations. So these gadgets are helping to partially compensate for the loss of so much real wealth. Even top-10% software engineers making $300k total compensation are really just achieving what I'd consider "normal slightly-upper middle class financial comfort". Ability to buy a modest home near their work, afford to have children and send them to college, etc.
    - 8y ago
anon23423532 8y ago
What benefits Apple doesn't benefit all americans. God forbid Apple lose some revenue to stop China from stealing billions of IP from other American companies. In the best case scenario China will obey international trade laws, Apple won't be affected and the IP theft will stop.
kimmeld 8y ago
The average American does not have a significant 401k balance or own enough stock to have it affect their mindset.
cityhomesteader 8y ago
> Why are people celebrating the downfall of Apple Because Apple is a tax dodging corporate behemoth that kowtows to the chinese and exploits slave labor? Because Apple sells overpriced garbage to people who don't know better? > the company that comprises 3.94% of S&P 500, and is probably the single biggest holding of 401K retirement accounts. You are really overstating AAPL significance in ordinary people's retirement portfolio. Most americans have an insignificant 401k account. I think I read that the median 401k value last year was $26K. Of that appl represents almost nothing for most investors/retirees. > No American benefits if Apple falls. What? Americans/american companies competing with Apple benefits. To say no american benefits isn't true. Hell Exxon's future has more impact on americans' lives. Doesn't mean we can't criticize it or support clean energy.
hugh4life 8y ago
Even if China completely banned Apple it would not be Apple's downfall. And frankly it would be dumb for China to pick too big a fight with Apple(and Foxxcon). There would be retaliation and rerouting. And I'm sorry, we can't let China be a single point of failure. There's a freemarket saying that goes something like "if you don't let goods cross borders soon armies will"... but what if your goods(IP) is arming the armies across the border... and what if you don't have the capability of sourcing components to create arms for your military from friendly nations?
jlarocco 8y ago
It's because these big companies don't see Americans as anything but a profit source.
pasbesoin 8y ago
This may be outdated. Some years ago, I read an article or heard an interview with a cognition / psychology / "cultural" expert (my apology, I know longer recall their exact credentials). That person described how the human mind can be views as a "giant", very powerful comparison engine. We are constantly evaluating our environment, including and especially our social environment, and our standing within it. If you are "doing as well as other people" -- sort of at the mean -- you are more relaxed. You feel secure, a part of the group with an established and respected place. You have social support (and its economic, defensive, etc. supports). If you are not doing that well, you become stressed. You are in a vulnerable position. I don't know whether I should be speaking of "mean" or "average". Nor to what extent media influence our perception of what that is. But I've never lost hold of that description, from years ago, and it continues to prod my thinking. And I think a lot of people in the U.S. feel more threatened than ever. Vast GDP is not reassuring, when you're not a part of it. Instead, it becomes threatening. Because you have no influence nor power compared to those people. And the past some decades have demonstrated, that those people will continue to enrich themselves at your expense. It may have been illusion more than reality, more often than people want to imagine: But the belief that "anyone can make it" in the U.S. has taken a serious blow, now, as well. So, people are happy to see "those privileged, job-exporting SOB's" take a hit. Or, put your own particular thinking to the generalized sentiment. Or, below some of those expressions, perhaps people are just hopeful that if more people are in the same boat, things will improve for them. At least, they won't be so disadvantaged in terms of power and influence. It's a pretty horrible feeling, being marginalized -- if it's not of your own choice and rationale. As well, feeling under constant, chronic stress; one slip, and you will lose what you have.

stcredzero 8y ago

> ...Apple - the company that comprises 3.94% of S&P 500, and is probably the single biggest holding of 401K retirement accounts...No American benefits if Apple falls. Is it too big to fall?

zajd 8y ago

Sure they do, these massive global tax evading tech conglomerates only benefit the most wealthy in America. PS only 32% of Americans have 401ks If Apple actually paid taxes on the money they made? If they didn't go over to china to pay cheaper labor and avoid enviromental regulations? Maybe you'd have a point. As is, they're just another parasite extracting as much wealth as they can in the name of creating the first quadrillionaire in history.

dmos62 8y ago
These are valid points and I don't think this comment merits being down-voted, especially without any replies. Outright calling Apple a parasite might not be particularly tactful, but it's hardly deniable. In fact, even if some of these statements were doubtful or deniable, this comment shouldn't be down-voted. We don't down-vote based on whether or not we like a comment, but on whether or not a comment contributes to a discussion.
- toasterlovin 8y ago
  To be honest, the person you're responding to either doesn't actually know much about Apple or is being disingenuous. Essentially everything they said about Apple is wrong: Apple pays taxes. Labor is cheaper in places other than China, but nowhere else has the ecosystem to support integration and assembly of consumer electronics. Apple is one of the few companies that is taking steps to ensure that their entire supply chain treats their workers well. And Apple has been an innovator when it comes to implementing environmentally friendly manufacturing practices and product packaging materials. Oh yeah, and they are making serious efforts to build enough renewable energy to offset their energy needs.
eanzenberg 8y ago
Let's thank god Apple is an american company paying a shitload of tax to america so they can support all the handouts you want the american gov't to pay for. Companies like them are the reason we can borrow $20T at super low interest rates to continue the spend spend spend of the last 30 years while true parasites continue to scream "what can my country do for me" instead of "what can I do for my country".
AgentOrange1234 8y ago
I'll (of course) agree that they benefit wealthy shareholders more than other people, but it seems a stretch to say that they only benefit the wealthy. They employ lots of people. They make phones/etc that people like. They match employees charitable contributions. Blah blah blah.
pishpash 8y ago
How is that Apple's problem? They don't write the tax laws, and there were numerous squandered political opportunities to extract real concessions from them, most recently during the December tax giveaway.

frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago

Perhaps it's bad if Apple fails but not for the reasons you list. Your comment is the epitome of 'too big to fail.' What, once a company gets big enough to get in some 401k accounts we're obligated to keep it going? I reject that. Apple is largely a widget company which produces expensive but nice technological baubles. If it fails we'll be fine.

pishpash 8y ago
Ah yes, the "let's go back to subsistence" argument.

elorant 8y ago

It seems that no American has benefited from their dominance either. They pay very little taxes and most of their manufacturing is offshore.

grecy 8y ago

Americans have become extremely bitter and negative about pretty much everything. New American car company trying to change the world (Tesla)? Nope, hope it fails. Large American company that contributes massively to the enonomy doing well (Apple) Nope, they suck. Someone wants to talk about Healthcare, or Education, or gun reform ? Nope, they suck. Basically, in modern America, everything and everyone sucks. It's not a positive place to be.

markholmes 8y ago
It’s cool to be pessimistic I guess. What happened to happy?
- dgzl 8y ago
  Why should you assume Americans are happy?
  - martythemaniak 8y ago
    Well, it's getting made great again. In fact, it's almost halfway through the project of getting made great, ergo, it must be pretty good. By 2020 there'll be nothing left to do but to keep it great. Again. http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/314750-trump-coins-2020-slogan-keep-america-great http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/314750-trump-coins-2020...
    - dgzl 8y ago
      > ergo, it must be pretty good. +1 for making me laugh. On the other hand, I'm incredibly impressed by how he's handled the new peace with North Korea. I hope the work that's been happening there continues.
stanfordkid 8y ago
Didn't Peter Thiel predict this in 2012? He outlined it very clearly as an inevitable shift from indefinite optimism to indefinite pessimism in his book "zero to one"

zepto 8y ago

Whilst I agree that no American benefits if Apple fails, it’s not surprising that Americans no longer celebrate the success of American businesses. The economy is demonstrably structured so that only a small number benefit, whilst income has been stagnant for generations, and living standards have been declining because of rising healthcare costs. Bringing down Apple may benefit nobody, but there is no longer any reason for most Americans to care about the success of American businesses since they can’t share in the prosperity.

karpodiem 8y ago
"Bringing down Apple may benefit nobody, but there is no longer any reason for Americans to care about the success of American businesses since they don’t share in the prosperity." Precisely. Many Fortune 100 US companies took the vast majority of their tax windfall/oversea cash and bought back the stock. Before you say most Americans own 401K's and have benefited from this - the relative increase in 401K's is dwarfed by the increase in housing prices and general inflation. Most Americans have experience single digit wage growth since the early 1980s, while the cost of pretty much everything has increased by double digits. Most Americans are worse off today (from an earnings standpoint once you normalize it for inflation and purchasing power) than they were 30 years ago.
- epicureanideal 8y ago
  I think we're worse off from the standpoint of financial independence and ability to grow wealth, yes. Ability to pay for things like education and health care, yes. I think the reason this isn't more obvious is that technology has improved so rapidly that for just a few thousand dollars... maybe 5% of the average household's income, we can buy really fantastic technology products compared to previous generations. So these gadgets are helping to partially compensate for the loss of so much real wealth. Even top-10% software engineers making $300k total compensation are really just achieving what I'd consider "normal slightly-upper middle class financial comfort". Ability to buy a modest home near their work, afford to have children and send them to college, etc.
  - 8y ago

anon23423532 8y ago

What benefits Apple doesn't benefit all americans. God forbid Apple lose some revenue to stop China from stealing billions of IP from other American companies. In the best case scenario China will obey international trade laws, Apple won't be affected and the IP theft will stop.

kimmeld 8y ago

The average American does not have a significant 401k balance or own enough stock to have it affect their mindset.

cityhomesteader 8y ago

> Why are people celebrating the downfall of Apple Because Apple is a tax dodging corporate behemoth that kowtows to the chinese and exploits slave labor? Because Apple sells overpriced garbage to people who don't know better? > the company that comprises 3.94% of S&P 500, and is probably the single biggest holding of 401K retirement accounts. You are really overstating AAPL significance in ordinary people's retirement portfolio. Most americans have an insignificant 401k account. I think I read that the median 401k value last year was $26K. Of that appl represents almost nothing for most investors/retirees. > No American benefits if Apple falls. What? Americans/american companies competing with Apple benefits. To say no american benefits isn't true. Hell Exxon's future has more impact on americans' lives. Doesn't mean we can't criticize it or support clean energy.

hugh4life 8y ago

Even if China completely banned Apple it would not be Apple's downfall. And frankly it would be dumb for China to pick too big a fight with Apple(and Foxxcon). There would be retaliation and rerouting. And I'm sorry, we can't let China be a single point of failure. There's a freemarket saying that goes something like "if you don't let goods cross borders soon armies will"... but what if your goods(IP) is arming the armies across the border... and what if you don't have the capability of sourcing components to create arms for your military from friendly nations?

jlarocco 8y ago

It's because these big companies don't see Americans as anything but a profit source.

pasbesoin 8y ago

This may be outdated. Some years ago, I read an article or heard an interview with a cognition / psychology / "cultural" expert (my apology, I know longer recall their exact credentials). That person described how the human mind can be views as a "giant", very powerful comparison engine. We are constantly evaluating our environment, including and especially our social environment, and our standing within it. If you are "doing as well as other people" -- sort of at the mean -- you are more relaxed. You feel secure, a part of the group with an established and respected place. You have social support (and its economic, defensive, etc. supports). If you are not doing that well, you become stressed. You are in a vulnerable position. I don't know whether I should be speaking of "mean" or "average". Nor to what extent media influence our perception of what that is. But I've never lost hold of that description, from years ago, and it continues to prod my thinking. And I think a lot of people in the U.S. feel more threatened than ever. Vast GDP is not reassuring, when you're not a part of it. Instead, it becomes threatening. Because you have no influence nor power compared to those people. And the past some decades have demonstrated, that those people will continue to enrich themselves at your expense. It may have been illusion more than reality, more often than people want to imagine: But the belief that "anyone can make it" in the U.S. has taken a serious blow, now, as well. So, people are happy to see "those privileged, job-exporting SOB's" take a hit. Or, put your own particular thinking to the generalized sentiment. Or, below some of those expressions, perhaps people are just hopeful that if more people are in the same boat, things will improve for them. At least, they won't be so disadvantaged in terms of power and influence. It's a pretty horrible feeling, being marginalized -- if it's not of your own choice and rationale. As well, feeling under constant, chronic stress; one slip, and you will lose what you have.