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>What evidence do you have that there is zero evidence? You're really contorting yourself here, just give me an apples to apples comparison of human driving sa

>What evidence do you have that there is zero evidence? You're really contorting yourself here, just give me an apples to apples comparison of human driving safety to self-driving vehicle safety and I'll be happy. (Hint: none exists) >That is not a fully autonomous vehicle, but rather an assisted one, one that expects human engagement. In the example case, it failed because of human error. No no, no word games. That is a Tesla marketing/liability line. What you see in that video is the current state of self-driving. And a product marketed as self-driving which can't steer around a stopped vehicle in the lane isn't really self-driving at all. Besides if what you're talking about is Level 5 type self-driving systems, you have nothing supporting the idea that we get there soon or that current self-driving systems will get us there. I mean besides if drunk drivers could navigate around that car then you're basically admitting that drunk drivers are still better than the current state of self-driving technology. (something I agree with) >ABS ... I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not against technological progress which makes vehicles safer. I'm against the understanding that self-driving technology is making cars safer. >Your criticism of Tesla sensors is flawed. You're assuming that their sensors will not get better. That seems an unreasonable and unlikely conclusion. And you're ignoring my point about 360 degree sensor coverage. I'm an excellent driver, but I find myself in danger regularly because I can't see everything. And you're assuming that their sensors will leap and bound ahead magically. You're trying to make me argue that humans are better drivers than the perfect system that exists in your head. I'm saying the perfect system that exists in your head is irrelevant because it is not going to become reality.

beat 8y ago
I'm not saying autonomous vehicles will be perfect. I'm just saying they'll be better than humans. Which isn't exactly a high bar. As for drunk drivers navigating around that car? There's an intersection a couple of miles from my house that has a stoplight. Southbound traffic is approaching from highway speeds, climbs over a hill, hits a 40mph zone, then the stoplight is a couple hundred meters. There have been multiple fatal collisions there by, well, drunk drivers, slamming into cars stopped at the red light at highway speeds (or faster). I'm terrified any time I'm stuck at that light after dark, especially on weekends. Of course, an autonomous car would detect the speed zone change and the red light.
- frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
  I'm saying that actually that bar is extremely high. >Of course, an autonomous car would detect the speed zone change and the red light. Would it? I think it's actually unclear that it would and besides this experience of yours is filling in for the place in your comment where you should be showing me the data that shows self-driving cars are safer.
  - beat 8y ago
    If an autonomous car can't read speed limit signs and see stoplights (and doesn't have an up to date on-board map of them), then that system has no business being on the road. But I'm assuming that low-hanging fruit like reading traffic signs and signals is a solved problem. Assuming that it isn't a solved problem is kind of irrational. If your argument is "Well, maybe the car won't see the traffic light it already knows is there", then perhaps your argument isn't very good.
    - frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
      >If an autonomous car can't read speed limit signs and see stoplights (and doesn't have an up to date on-board map of them), then that system has no business being on the road. Then you're kind of going against your original comment where you said you wanted self-driving vehicles on the road asap. All you have to do is google: Tesla Speed Sign and you'll find tons of problems and examples of Teslas misreading signs. Here are some examples: My AP1 car has interpreted a 35 mph sign as an 85 mph sign. --- My understanding is AP1 visually identifies speed signs, but can screw up (reported that our highway 80 is misread as 80 mph) --- Addendum: a 45 mph zone, permanently signed (white/black sign large - not orange/black sign small), which by the way AP2 completely ignores. See error-ridden, and in this case an example that creates a safety/financial hazard not present with AP1. --- And on some highways in the area, especially where there has been recent construction, the speed limit database thinks the speeds are 45 or 50 MPH in sections - when the posted speed limit is supposed to be 60 or 65 MPH. If the car is running under AutoSteer when it hits one of these sections, the car immediately slows down, because AutoSteer won't exceed the speed limit by more than 5 MPH on non-highway roads. https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/new-car-has-trouble-recognizing-speed-limit-signs https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/new-car-has-trouble-re... >(and doesn't have an up to date on-board map of them) This is also something that doesn't always happen in real life. Here's a quick example just from googling: The "new" speed limit database distributed last summer (from TomTom?) has numerous areas with missing speed limit data or incorrect speeds (both high and low), which causes issues with AutoSteer. And if this happens while driving at highway speeds, AutoSteer will try to quickly slow down in the middle of high speed traffic. While you can disengage AutoSteer and retake control, the other option is just to temporarily leave AutoSteer/TACC running, and manage the speed yourself until the software sees it's back in an area with the correct speed limit. https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/fooling-speed-limit-detection https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/fooling-speed-limit-de... >But I'm assuming that low-hanging fruit like reading traffic signs and signals is a solved problem. You know what they say about assumptions lol. >Assuming that it isn't a solved problem is kind of irrational. One, it has nothing to do with rationality. Two, it's actually not a solved problem. >If your argument is "Well, maybe the car won't see the traffic light it already knows is there", then perhaps your argument isn't very good. Or maybe the state of self-driving technology isn't actually as advanced as you believe. I'm glad we can agree that these systems have no business being on the road though.
tigershark 8y ago
Waymo has been transporting around the 400 people that applied for 8 months without any safety driver. It has 7 million miles under the belt without any casualties and orders of magnitude more of simulated miles.

beat 8y ago

I'm not saying autonomous vehicles will be perfect. I'm just saying they'll be better than humans. Which isn't exactly a high bar. As for drunk drivers navigating around that car? There's an intersection a couple of miles from my house that has a stoplight. Southbound traffic is approaching from highway speeds, climbs over a hill, hits a 40mph zone, then the stoplight is a couple hundred meters. There have been multiple fatal collisions there by, well, drunk drivers, slamming into cars stopped at the red light at highway speeds (or faster). I'm terrified any time I'm stuck at that light after dark, especially on weekends. Of course, an autonomous car would detect the speed zone change and the red light.

frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
I'm saying that actually that bar is extremely high. >Of course, an autonomous car would detect the speed zone change and the red light. Would it? I think it's actually unclear that it would and besides this experience of yours is filling in for the place in your comment where you should be showing me the data that shows self-driving cars are safer.
- beat 8y ago
  If an autonomous car can't read speed limit signs and see stoplights (and doesn't have an up to date on-board map of them), then that system has no business being on the road. But I'm assuming that low-hanging fruit like reading traffic signs and signals is a solved problem. Assuming that it isn't a solved problem is kind of irrational. If your argument is "Well, maybe the car won't see the traffic light it already knows is there", then perhaps your argument isn't very good.
  - frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
    >If an autonomous car can't read speed limit signs and see stoplights (and doesn't have an up to date on-board map of them), then that system has no business being on the road. Then you're kind of going against your original comment where you said you wanted self-driving vehicles on the road asap. All you have to do is google: Tesla Speed Sign and you'll find tons of problems and examples of Teslas misreading signs. Here are some examples: My AP1 car has interpreted a 35 mph sign as an 85 mph sign. --- My understanding is AP1 visually identifies speed signs, but can screw up (reported that our highway 80 is misread as 80 mph) --- Addendum: a 45 mph zone, permanently signed (white/black sign large - not orange/black sign small), which by the way AP2 completely ignores. See error-ridden, and in this case an example that creates a safety/financial hazard not present with AP1. --- And on some highways in the area, especially where there has been recent construction, the speed limit database thinks the speeds are 45 or 50 MPH in sections - when the posted speed limit is supposed to be 60 or 65 MPH. If the car is running under AutoSteer when it hits one of these sections, the car immediately slows down, because AutoSteer won't exceed the speed limit by more than 5 MPH on non-highway roads. https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/new-car-has-trouble-recognizing-speed-limit-signs https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/new-car-has-trouble-re... >(and doesn't have an up to date on-board map of them) This is also something that doesn't always happen in real life. Here's a quick example just from googling: The "new" speed limit database distributed last summer (from TomTom?) has numerous areas with missing speed limit data or incorrect speeds (both high and low), which causes issues with AutoSteer. And if this happens while driving at highway speeds, AutoSteer will try to quickly slow down in the middle of high speed traffic. While you can disengage AutoSteer and retake control, the other option is just to temporarily leave AutoSteer/TACC running, and manage the speed yourself until the software sees it's back in an area with the correct speed limit. https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/fooling-speed-limit-detection https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/fooling-speed-limit-de... >But I'm assuming that low-hanging fruit like reading traffic signs and signals is a solved problem. You know what they say about assumptions lol. >Assuming that it isn't a solved problem is kind of irrational. One, it has nothing to do with rationality. Two, it's actually not a solved problem. >If your argument is "Well, maybe the car won't see the traffic light it already knows is there", then perhaps your argument isn't very good. Or maybe the state of self-driving technology isn't actually as advanced as you believe. I'm glad we can agree that these systems have no business being on the road though.

tigershark 8y ago

Waymo has been transporting around the 400 people that applied for 8 months without any safety driver. It has 7 million miles under the belt without any casualties and orders of magnitude more of simulated miles.