17 ms·

Because in order to live a decent life, they have chosen to work and live in two different places which are not close enough to other people's destinations to w

Because in order to live a decent life, they have chosen to work and live in two different places which are not close enough to other people's destinations to warrant mass transit, and thus need to drive between them.

TeMPOraL 8y ago
And because of possibility of making such choices, desirable living places and desirable work places are moving further apart. Don't forget the feedback loops. People use cars because they need cars, but they need cars precisely because they use them.
- ummonk 8y ago
  You think if people didn't have cars, SF Bay Area communities would build enough housing to support their job growth?
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    And better public transport, maybe. With no cars and no public transport, there would probably be no SF Bay Area at all, but a bunch of smaller communities, each with housing and jobs.
- microcolonel 8y ago
  > but they need cars precisely because they use them. Have you ever left the city for a destination which is not another city, or a suburb? Sure, if space ships were impossible or too expensive to even consider, we wouldn't be planning to visit Mars; but it isn't equally valid to not visit Mars altogether as an alternative to visiting Mars, just because going to Mars is harder than going to the corner store.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    I'm not criticizing, I'm pointing out some critical feedback loops that happen in our society. > Have you ever left the city for a destination which is not another city, or a suburb? Sure. My point is not about vacations, or Mars trips, but precisely about regular commute. As more people started having long-range vehicles, the landscape of work and living spaces changed so that now people are required to have such vehicles, and if you don't have one, you're significantly disadvantaged on the job and residential markets. The same thing happened with cellphones, bank accounts, plastic cards - cool tools at first, and then soon requirements for living in modern society. I'm just pointing out this phenomenon for consideration.
    - microcolonel 8y ago
      > My point is not about vacations, or Mars trips, but precisely about regular commute. I'll set aside for a moment how you seem to think that the only reason to leave the city is for a vacation. My point is that there is a tremendous benefit to people being able to choose precisely where they want to live and work, and that the car is the means to that end with the fewest limitations. More people could probably take mass routes in larger vehicles, especially if bicycle racks became larger and common enough to rely on, but that won't diminish the value of the car, even for a commute. Cities also seem dead-set on installing trams and subways, when buses clearly offer the best bang for the buck (but nobody likes to say that they ride the bus, probably because buses are unloved). Personally I think the more effective route is to encourage less commuting altogether, which would be an obvious natural effect if the roads were on the market, but in practice it would have to take the form of a "credit". Some companies (e.g. Microsoft) have company shuttles, those could be encouraged as well (since roads are not on the market, and thus do not encourage pooling).

TeMPOraL 8y ago

And because of possibility of making such choices, desirable living places and desirable work places are moving further apart. Don't forget the feedback loops. People use cars because they need cars, but they need cars precisely because they use them.

ummonk 8y ago
You think if people didn't have cars, SF Bay Area communities would build enough housing to support their job growth?
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  And better public transport, maybe. With no cars and no public transport, there would probably be no SF Bay Area at all, but a bunch of smaller communities, each with housing and jobs.
microcolonel 8y ago
> but they need cars precisely because they use them. Have you ever left the city for a destination which is not another city, or a suburb? Sure, if space ships were impossible or too expensive to even consider, we wouldn't be planning to visit Mars; but it isn't equally valid to not visit Mars altogether as an alternative to visiting Mars, just because going to Mars is harder than going to the corner store.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  I'm not criticizing, I'm pointing out some critical feedback loops that happen in our society. > Have you ever left the city for a destination which is not another city, or a suburb? Sure. My point is not about vacations, or Mars trips, but precisely about regular commute. As more people started having long-range vehicles, the landscape of work and living spaces changed so that now people are required to have such vehicles, and if you don't have one, you're significantly disadvantaged on the job and residential markets. The same thing happened with cellphones, bank accounts, plastic cards - cool tools at first, and then soon requirements for living in modern society. I'm just pointing out this phenomenon for consideration.
  - microcolonel 8y ago
    > My point is not about vacations, or Mars trips, but precisely about regular commute. I'll set aside for a moment how you seem to think that the only reason to leave the city is for a vacation. My point is that there is a tremendous benefit to people being able to choose precisely where they want to live and work, and that the car is the means to that end with the fewest limitations. More people could probably take mass routes in larger vehicles, especially if bicycle racks became larger and common enough to rely on, but that won't diminish the value of the car, even for a commute. Cities also seem dead-set on installing trams and subways, when buses clearly offer the best bang for the buck (but nobody likes to say that they ride the bus, probably because buses are unloved). Personally I think the more effective route is to encourage less commuting altogether, which would be an obvious natural effect if the roads were on the market, but in practice it would have to take the form of a "credit". Some companies (e.g. Microsoft) have company shuttles, those could be encouraged as well (since roads are not on the market, and thus do not encourage pooling).